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Old 10-12-2004, 02:36 PM   #9
Nurumaiel
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Join Date: Nov 2002
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The Saucepan Man, a very sensible suggestion, and one I would say is probably true. Since, in those two quotes, the word 'proud' could be changed to either 'arrogant' or 'majestic/dignified' and still work well, it makes sense that it probably does mean both. Now I feel like Doctor Watson.

But now that I have Boromir in my mind, I can't get him out. It seems to me that Pride was his main failing, so far as he had it in the bad sense, and led to a lot of his other lacks in virtue. I wonder if it's possible, also, that he was overly proud of his land and people? One reason he wanted the Ring was for Gondor's defense, but also for power. Power for him, for his father, for his people, for his land.

And certainly the Deadly Sins can be applied to him without much trouble, but obviously Boromir wasn't bad through and through. Which of the Virtues can be applied to him? Virtues that kept him from ultimate downfall in the end?

It seems to me that his 'redemption' was when he died like a true man and soldier. Nothing was ever told truly of Boromir's point of view when he fought the Uruks, but I'd imagine that at that moment all the good within him welled up, all the good that would be so many virtues that they could not be named in one. Not even Fortitude seems quite right.

And another thing occured to me while re-reading Feanor's post. Pride, Envy, and Anger are three of the Sins that can be attributed to Boromir. These three are feelings resulting from the weakness or strength of human nature, and not necessarily bad. Pride and Anger can be good if manifested in the correct way. Pride has already been explained I think, but Anger can also be a Just Anger. No instance comes to mind from LotR at this moment. I could be argued that Envy could be manifested in a good way. In older Jesuit schools the boys were each given a partner, and the two boys would compete with each other, each trying to be holier than the other. Envy for another's possessions would be wrong, but an envy that someone is, for example, more of a good person than you are could be argued as not a bad thing, depending on how the person reacted to the envy. If one were to snub the better person, and speak rudely to them as a result of their jealousy, it could not be good. But if it made one strive to be more like the better person, it would not be bad. A Envious Admiration, it could almost be called.

Besides this, Anger, Pride, and Envy are feelings, classified also as temptations, which won't be wrong if bad actions do not result from them, that is, if one does not give in to the temptation. Boromir was proud -- arrogant, and he acted 'superior' and spoke in an unseemly way to those who were wiser than he. Boromir was, at one point at least, angry with Frodo, and he gave in to his anger and attacked him. Boromir seemed always envious of those such as Aragorn, and this envy could have also prompted him to act arrogant towards the wiser. So it was not so much that he felt these things, but that he acted upon them. I suppose I don't have much point in saying this; just musings on my part.

Helen, good point! Another instance occurred to me, and that is Sam's lack of Charity at one point. I remember when my father read me LotR I was so full of hope when Smeagol touched Frodo's knee and actually looked human (hobbit). He had been arranging of how to kill Frodo without actually doing it, and for a moment there seemed some hope that he would reconsider and actually avoid Shelob's lair out of affection for Frodo. Sam awoke and saw him with his hand on Frodo's knees, and out of a lack of Charity immediately assumed bad and scolded him dreadfully. Smeagol became Gollum again and any small hopes were lost.
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