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mark12_30 · 10-13-2004, 06:47 AM

Interesting.

I don't see the shattering of the door as a failure on Gandalf's part, as much as, the physical thing was caught between two tremendous spiritual energies and couldn't hold up to the strain. To me this testifies more to the powers involved than a failure on either part.

I see the Word of Command more as a pure contest of will (reminding me of Aragorn's striving with the Mouth of Sauron at the Black Gate.) But in casting any "spell", is strength of will disposable? As Frodo sings Tom's spell, his will is strengthened. In certain souls, music and willpower are inextricably linked. Perhaps the singing is a vehicle for the strengthening of the will.

Tom sings about everything. But is his will ever really challenged? "Tom is Master." Within his peculiar 'realm', when is his will ever thwarted? His life is an enjoyable game.

We are not told how Elrond weaves his spell in the River; Gandalf helps, but no singing is indicated.

Galadriel sings, but she also simply exercises her will (reference her description of her ongoing conflict with Sauron, his unsuccessful desire to see her thoughts, and her perception of his will and thoughts.)

Elrond is considered "Mighty"-- he is capable of working 'elf-magic', certainly, but he strikes me more as a formidable presence by his sheer will. That willpower is buttressed by his experience, his wisdom and lore; but it seems to me to be essential to his being. Had the word not been over-trivialised, I would call it good-will; what I mean is the will to do, to be, and to battle for, good. (Cue theme: Samwise The Brave. Voice-over in the background.)

In contrast-- Feanor. Yes, he's magical, etc etc, but more than anything, he is willful-- in a borderline, and eventually, bad way. Yet, before the Silmarils were stolen, his wilfulness was an essential part of his art and hence his power. He set about (rather petulantly, I thought) making the three silmarils once Galadriel refused to give him three doggone strands of her silver-and-gold hair!

Things happen on several different levels, I think; the bottom line (I feel, and as yet I have little evidence to prove it) is strength-- and purity-- of will, not necessarily the mode of expression. And I think it is the will that ultimately matters. Aragorn's will produced the victories ini the War; Frodo's will combined with Sam's will got them both to the Sammath Naur; Galadriel's will shielded Lorien from Sauron; Elrond's will shielded Rivendell likewise...

Ultimately, Gandalf's will defeated the balrog, despite the shattered door and broken bridge.

Much food for thought.

ps. Boromir88-- good point. And it dovetails with my point about Gandalf's will being key, I think; he was reluctant to use what power he had, til hard-pressed; his job was to encourage (read: strengthen the will) of those he was with. Generally speaking, rather than kerblasto the orcs, he rallied the warriors. But he had no problem using his white-light phenomena to rescue Faramir.

10-13-2004, 06:47 AM	#4
mark12_30 Stormdancer of Doom Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Elvish singing is not a thing to miss, in June under the stars Posts: 4,349	magic, music, and? Interesting. I don't see the shattering of the door as a failure on Gandalf's part, as much as, the physical thing was caught between two tremendous spiritual energies and couldn't hold up to the strain. To me this testifies more to the powers involved than a failure on either part. I see the Word of Command more as a pure contest of will (reminding me of Aragorn's striving with the Mouth of Sauron at the Black Gate.) But in casting any "spell", is strength of will disposable? As Frodo sings Tom's spell, his will is strengthened. In certain souls, music and willpower are inextricably linked. Perhaps the singing is a vehicle for the strengthening of the will. Tom sings about everything. But is his will ever really challenged? "Tom is Master." Within his peculiar 'realm', when is his will ever thwarted? His life is an enjoyable game. We are not told how Elrond weaves his spell in the River; Gandalf helps, but no singing is indicated. Galadriel sings, but she also simply exercises her will (reference her description of her ongoing conflict with Sauron, his unsuccessful desire to see her thoughts, and her perception of his will and thoughts.) Elrond is considered "Mighty"-- he is capable of working 'elf-magic', certainly, but he strikes me more as a formidable presence by his sheer will. That willpower is buttressed by his experience, his wisdom and lore; but it seems to me to be essential to his being. Had the word not been over-trivialised, I would call it good-will; what I mean is the will to do, to be, and to battle for, good. (Cue theme: Samwise The Brave. Voice-over in the background.) In contrast-- Feanor. Yes, he's magical, etc etc, but more than anything, he is willful-- in a borderline, and eventually, bad way. Yet, before the Silmarils were stolen, his wilfulness was an essential part of his art and hence his power. He set about (rather petulantly, I thought) making the three silmarils once Galadriel refused to give him three doggone strands of her silver-and-gold hair! Things happen on several different levels, I think; the bottom line (I feel, and as yet I have little evidence to prove it) is strength-- and purity-- of will, not necessarily the mode of expression. And I think it is the will that ultimately matters. Aragorn's will produced the victories ini the War; Frodo's will combined with Sam's will got them both to the Sammath Naur; Galadriel's will shielded Lorien from Sauron; Elrond's will shielded Rivendell likewise... Ultimately, Gandalf's will defeated the balrog, despite the shattered door and broken bridge. Much food for thought. ps. Boromir88-- good point. And it dovetails with my point about Gandalf's will being key, I think; he was reluctant to use what power he had, til hard-pressed; his job was to encourage (read: strengthen the will) of those he was with. Generally speaking, rather than kerblasto the orcs, he rallied the warriors. But he had no problem using his white-light phenomena to rescue Faramir. __________________ ...down to the water to see the elves dance and sing upon the midsummer's eve. Last edited by mark12_30; 10-13-2004 at 06:53 AM.