[Fordim Hedgethistle]

I am intrigued by your very nice formula of Celeborn and Galadriel as enacting Justice and Mercy, davem, but like Bb I think I am somewhat too suspicious of 'neatness' -- I like this idea, but I think it might reduce the role of Galadriel in this chapter somewhat by denying her own complex testing by the Ring, and by Frodo. I made some comments about judgement in regards to Gandalf's fall, but I think there's something different going on in this chapter -- well, Bb has already said it: this is a chapter of testing, but not by anyone in particular, of of everyone by the Ring and by the threat of the Ring.

Forgive me the early morning post, but I can no longer remember or quickly find who made the following point. I will hope to edit later and attribute it -- but there was discussion above about Galadriel and Celeborn as being like Saruman and Gandalf in the sense that Galadriel/Saruman are about charisma, while Gandalf and Celeborn are more about quietly working in the background. . .what a fascinating idea. It seems to me however that we can refine this. Galadriel is the positive force of charisma: she enchants people and even commands their love but not for the purpose of domination -- she's like that ultimate pretty girl who can't help but have the men fall for her, but who is sweet natured enough never to let it go to her head. Saruman is a seducer, who uses his charisma for power and command.

Is there a way to look at Celeborn and Gandalf in this same negative/positive way? I think the difficulty with Celeborn is that we know so little of him, but perhaps that's the point?? For most people in Middle-Earth Gandalf is about as well known or useful as is Celeborn to us. Time and again we see people who have no idea who or what Gandalf really is and they keep underestimating him, ignoring him or dismissing him, to the peril of the world. As the story goes on I sometimes feel that Gandalf had been a bit too careful and retiring in showing his true worth and power; if he had been a bit more forthcoming with his glory in the past, perhaps he wouldn't have had such a rough time in Rohan, and perhaps he could have overawed Saruman earlier.

The 'cloaking' of Gandalf, however, is made a positive/good thing in that it is one of the things that earns him the right to return as Gandalf the White; be demonstrating that he can contain his glory, that he won't just turn on the charisma to get an easy win, but instead seek to help others act for themselves, he is vested with the great power needed to complete the task. Celeborn is the negative of this (???) in that he keeps his wisdom and power so well hidden, even from the people who meet him, that he is basically useless beyond the borders of his own realm. The kingdoms of Men around him don't even realise he's an ally, and even when he helps the Fellowship, it is Galadriel who gets all the credit.

Like I said, early morning and a lack of information about Celeborn makes this really shaky.

One more point: Sauce, that is hands-down one of the funniest things I've seen on the Downs. . .and the last and best word on Celeborn.