[The Saucepan Man]

Great topic, Fordim, and a fascinating analysis.

Unfortunately, I have no time now save to make a few passing comments.

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

They are some of the most interesting characters because they are psychologically in complex and perhaps more realistic than the more consistently noble characters who disregard their own feelings with regard to the greater good.

I heartily agree with this, and it was a point that became clear to me during the discussion on the Psychological Depth thread. Together with Denethor, they are the most psychologically complex characters in the book, and it seems to me, therefore, that it is natural that they should be grouped together in an analysis such as this. Is there a place for Denethor too here, I wonder? Probably not, despite his psychological complexity:

1. Although he certainly despairs, he does not triumph.
2. He is not an unwitting player and is more aware of his "part in the Story" than many others - hence, in many ways, his despair.
3. Desire did not play a great role in his actions, save perhaps the desire to preserve his position.
4. His failure to achieve his ends does allow the Return of the King unopposed.
5. He certainly opposes the will of the "heroes".
6. But he occupies a different place in the structure of the narrative than the three subjects of this thread.

So there are some parallels, but they are not borne fully out. Nevertheless, I feel that Denethor does have some place in this discussion, as Boromir's father, if for no other reason. Alas, no time to develop this further.

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

It is one of those neat little twists that the hobbits who Boromir dies saving facilitate the survival of Faramir and Eowyn. Little Hobbit cupids bringing them together at thehouses of healing

Good point. Merry and Pippin do form a link between Boromir and Eowyn/Faramir, although their connection with Gollum is less clear ...

One final thought. Eowyn can be distinguished from the other two, it seems to me, on one analysis. The selfish and disobedient actions of Boromir and Gollum (ie going against their oaths and attempting to seize the Ring) are unambiguously portrayed as "wrong", even though they have (unintended) fortuitous consequences. On the other hand, Eowyn's selfish and disobedient act (disobeying her King's orders) has an intentionally fortuitous consequence - she kills the Witch King and saves her King from a grisly end. Admittedly, she did not set out to kill the Witch King, but she did set out to do battle. The consequences of her acts are more within the scope of that which she intended to achieve. Accordingly, her "wrongful" act seems, to me at least, to be of a different character - less unambiguously "wrong" than the acts of Boromir and Gollum.

Sorry, my disordered and incomplete thoughts are the result of haste. I will return ...