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Old 12-22-2004, 09:26 PM   #12
The Saucepan Man
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fordim Hedgethistle
These questions that Mark and Mith rather demonstrate what I think makes these three characters so very interesting insofar as there’s not going to be much debate about whether Frodo, Aragorn, Sam, Gandalf, Merry, Pippin, Legolas, Gimli (and on and on and on) are good or if Sauron, Saruman, Grima, Shelob (and on and on and on) are evil – but with Boromir, Éowyn and Gollum (BEG?) there is a discussion possible.
That's it! You have put your finger on it! That's what makes me think that Denethor belongs in this discussion. As you say, there is much scope for discussion in connection with the motives and actions of Boromir, Eowyn and Gollum because (unlike the other central characters) they are neither entirely good nor entirely evil. And this applies to Denethor too. He was once a great and noble Steward and he has served Gondor with distinction. Even at the time of the War of the Ring, despite his despair, he retains his dignity, powerful intellect and strategic nouse (no, we are not talking about the villain of the films here ). He is never entirely evil (in the Sauron/Saruman/Shelob sense), yet his final act is an evil one - and one which goes unredeemed. He kills himself (presumably a sin, according to Tolkien's beliefs) and tries to take his one remaining son with him (a sin in anyone's book). And he achieves nothing by doing so, save to ease Aragorn's ascent to the throne - hardly a consequence which redeems his final act.


Quote:
Denethor’s ‘madness’ is really not psychological or even emotional, but spiritual. He has been tricked by Sauron into believing that hope is impossible.
Actually, I believe that his madness comprises all three. The emotional, and therefore psychological, element is present in the heightening of his despair with the loss of his beloved firstborn and the belief that he has lost his remaining son too. And Sauron's trickery could only work on him by virtue of the emotional (as well as dutiful) love that he felt for his country. Seeing its fall as inevitable works emotionally and psychologically on his mind. So, his ambiguity - in terms of good v evil - may be discussed on all three levels.

But, ultimately, I believe that you are right when you say:


Quote:
In this way he stands as an important foil to the GBE triad
He is similar to them in his psychological/spiritual complexity, yet he goes unredeemed. Why is this? What did he do that was so wrong that he doesn't deserve redemption (in life at least)? Is it perhaps that he is brought down directly by Sauron rather than indirectly (through the Ring or, in Eowyn's case, the circumstances of her country and her unrequited love for Aragorn)? Surely that is rather unfair on him since, of them all, he had the least chance, being directly in contention with the Dark Lord's will. And, as I have suggested, his despair was heavily influenced by the loss of his sons and the inevitable (as he saw it) loss of the realm for which he was responsible, factors played upon by a power far greater than him. Surely, viewed in these terms, his madness is at least understandable, and possibly excusable.
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Last edited by The Saucepan Man; 12-22-2004 at 10:26 PM. Reason: To remedy some clumsy phraseology
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