[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Child

SpM - Speaking directly to the question you've raised.... Yes, I've read that quote from osanwe before, but have always felt that "being trapped" was a danger upon misuse of the form, rather than something inherent to the form itself.

But the first paragraph of the quote that HerenIstarion gives suggests that the spirit may become tied to the body without it being misused (in the sense of being used for evil):

It is said that the longer and the more the same hröa is used, the greater is the bond of habit, and the less do the 'self-arrayed' desire to leave it. As raiment may soon cease to be adornment, and becomes (as is said in the tongues of both Elves and Men) a 'habit', a customary garb. Or if among Elves and Men it be worn to mitigate heat or cold, it soon makes the clad body less able to endure these things when naked". Pengoloð also cites the opinion that if a "spirit" (that is, one of those not embodied by creation) uses a hröa for the furtherance of its personal purposes, or (still more) for the enjoyment of bodily faculties, it finds it increasingly difficult to operate without the hröa.

It seems that the spirit may become inextricably tied to the hröa simply through the necessities of sustaining it over a prolonged period of time. My quesion is whether, in light of this, the likes of Gandalf and Melian would have been able voluntarily to leave their bodies once they returned to Aman (and Melian, after all, conceived a child - which is said in that passage to be the most binding of all acts).

Originally Posted by Child

If the Istari had been told they would be trapped forever in a carnate body merely because they had eaten a meal or enjoyed a pint of ale, I doubt they would have agreed to come. And surely Manwe would not withold such an important piece of information from them, if it was true.

I agree that Manwe would have warned them, and it is quite possible that he did. But perhaps it was a sacrifice that they were prepared to make (or risk having to make) in order to "save" the peoples of Middle-earth from Sauron's menace. After all, they were not prevented from returning to Aman (unless, like Saruman, they strayed from the path). They would simply have to do so in bodily form, and the Elves who dwelt there (outside Mandos' Halls) were perfectly content to do so in such form.

Or perhaps the hröa would fade over time (dependent on the extent to which they indulged in "earthly pleasures"), allowing them evetually to return to a wholly spirit-ual existence.

In any event, if Gandalf got stuck with his physical body, I would put the blame squarely on all that pipweed he smoked.

Originally Posted by Neithan

I don't think so, at least not normally. Sauron may have been a special case since he had put so much of his power into the ring and he was powerful to begin with, but I still don't think that he could shape shift as he used to.

But the fact that he could no longer take fair form certainly implies, to me at least, that he could take other forms. And why should he have been any different from other Maiar?

To be honest, I am looking for a solution here to the Balrog wing debate. If, despite being tied to their bodies, they were still able to shape-shift, then a Balrog could have wings - or not - depending on how he felt that day.

Originally Posted by obloquy

I was unaware that discussions of this topic were allowed without my participation.

So participate.