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**lindil** · 04-16-2003, 10:51 AM

"I do not see how any Elves could survive, especially since if they do not leave for Valinor, they will eventually grow mortal, and perish. "

Not quite it. Elves only perish when the world ends. They are 'immortal' within it. They do however fade meaning their bodies are 'consumed' by their spirits, i.e. they become less and less tangible.

We were of late discussing Tolkiens begining of the Legendarium in the HoM-E/UT Society thread, where it is clear [to me] that he had an experience of some sort of lingering and faded 'Elves'[or what he believed to be indeed that] in Warwick while in the early stages of composing the Book of Lost Tales [see chapter 1 of BoLT I - the poem at the nd entitled, Kortirion among the Trees. ]

Most fascinating still is that this poem is one of the only works that was completely revised in all of the three major stages of his work on the Legendarium, CJRT gives it in all 3 versions:

c. 1917? ~ the Lost Tales era

1937 - the pre/early LotR era

and 1962 - the Post LotR era [it was apparently considered for inclusion in the Adventures of Tom Bombadil!].

We are faced with a few possiblilities as I see it in this poem;
1- The Professor was imagining Elves so intemsly at the time that he decided to create a legend for them.

2- he made up a poem about about sensing their lingering presence whilst not really sensing anything at all, but just because he liked the idea.

3- He actually believed that he had experienced the presence of faded Faeries [as he first calls them] still lingering and going about their lives in the backways of Warwick. And it was these that in some as yet unexplored fashion inspired his 'Mythology for England'.

From the fact that he rewrote the poem 3 times with ever gerater clarity and that the poem, even though it no longer had a firm location in the midst of the Legendarium was still in some ways I think it's root, if not heart. In a more tangible way than either the Fall of Gondolin story or the Earendil fragment.

In my Weekly Article forum [see link below] I have included an extremely fascinating account from a very reputable and sober herbalist living in Minnesota. He tells several stories of modern encounters [close friends] witht the Fair Folk and how they came from Europe.

JRRT's poem Imram [ in Sauron defeated] also deals with the search for the land of th ELves by Irish monks. JRRT did not invent this genre, he was merely adding to it.

So we have several links of no minor significance that such a race in fact did exist, and may still. To me the fascinating question is, too what degree did they directly inspire the Silm and co. maybe none at all, maybe alot.

If anyone has any names of sources that go into the Tuatha de Danaans in detail, I would love to see them.

[ April 16, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ]

04-16-2003, 10:51 AM	#9
lindil Seeker of the Straight Path Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal Posts: 1,680	"I do not see how any Elves could survive, especially since if they do not leave for Valinor, they will eventually grow mortal, and perish. " Not quite it. Elves only perish when the world ends. They are 'immortal' within it. They do however fade meaning their bodies are 'consumed' by their spirits, i.e. they become less and less tangible. We were of late discussing Tolkiens begining of the Legendarium in the HoM-E/UT Society thread, where it is clear [to me] that he had an experience of some sort of lingering and faded 'Elves'[or what he believed to be indeed that] in Warwick while in the early stages of composing the Book of Lost Tales [see chapter 1 of BoLT I - the poem at the nd entitled, Kortirion among the Trees. ] Most fascinating still is that this poem is one of the only works that was completely revised in all of the three major stages of his work on the Legendarium, CJRT gives it in all 3 versions: c. 1917? ~ the Lost Tales era 1937 - the pre/early LotR era and 1962 - the Post LotR era [it was apparently considered for inclusion in the Adventures of Tom Bombadil!]. We are faced with a few possiblilities as I see it in this poem; 1- The Professor was imagining Elves so intemsly at the time that he decided to create a legend for them. 2- he made up a poem about about sensing their lingering presence whilst not really sensing anything at all, but just because he liked the idea. 3- He actually believed that he had experienced the presence of faded Faeries [as he first calls them] still lingering and going about their lives in the backways of Warwick. And it was these that in some as yet unexplored fashion inspired his 'Mythology for England'. From the fact that he rewrote the poem 3 times with ever gerater clarity and that the poem, even though it no longer had a firm location in the midst of the Legendarium was still in some ways I think it's root, if not heart. In a more tangible way than either the Fall of Gondolin story or the Earendil fragment. In my Weekly Article forum [see link below] I have included an extremely fascinating account from a very reputable and sober herbalist living in Minnesota. He tells several stories of modern encounters [close friends] witht the Fair Folk and how they came from Europe. JRRT's poem Imram [ in Sauron defeated] also deals with the search for the land of th ELves by Irish monks. JRRT did not invent this genre, he was merely adding to it. So we have several links of no minor significance that such a race in fact did exist, and may still. To me the fascinating question is, too what degree did they directly inspire the Silm and co. maybe none at all, maybe alot. If anyone has any names of sources that go into the Tuatha de Danaans in detail, I would love to see them. [ April 16, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ] __________________ The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.