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Old 01-04-2005, 08:43 PM   #24
The Saucepan Man
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Palantir-Green

To my mind, Fordim Hedgethistle presents a compelling argument (post #16 above).

To clear up a few other points:

Quote:
Originally Posted by phantom
Manuscript B ignores the most pertinent part of the manuscript A quote-> "one so forced would have rejected bodily life and passed to Mandos". Nothing in B goes against this statement.
In a sense this is what happened to Celebrian. It is said in Appendix A that, as a consequence of her torment at the hands of the Orcs and despite being "healed in body by Elrond", she "lost all delight in Middle-earth, and the next year went to the Havens and passed over the Sea". Admittedly, the passage suggests that the treatment referred to would have caused the spirit to leave the body and pass directly to Mandos. However, it is clear that her departure west was occasioned by the psychological, rather than physical, wounds that she received. Perhaps Elrond's skill was able to prevent her spirit leaving her body, yet her spirit could still not remain. And perhaps, once she reached Valinor, she did reject her physical body and spend time "cleansing" her spirit in Mandos' Halls.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Neurion
I also wonder if the orcs would be capable of such an act, as they seem to be quite asexual, nothing being said about female orcs or anything else, only that they spawned.
Tolkien never referred to Orcs being spawned in the sense portrayed in the films. And creatures can be described as "spawning" when they physically procreate (frogs and fish, for example). Moreover, in The Silmarillion its is said, in connection with the creation of Orcs:


Quote:
For the Orcs had life and multiplied after the manner of the Children of Iluvatar ...
In light of this, and given that there are references to Orcish "families" (Azog being the father of Bolg, for example), it seems to me that there is sufficient evidence to posit that they were able to procreate in the same manner as the other races.


Quote:
Finally, I believe Tolkien wrote that Celebrian's reason for leaving was "A poisoned wound" not any psychological damage.
As mentioned above, it was the psychological damage that caused her to leave, since her physical wounds were healed by Elrond.
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