[Bill Ferny]

Note to forum: I realize that this forum is a free exchange of ideas related to the life and work of JRR Tolkien, a free exchange between all community members, each member deserving respect and courtesy. All are free to disagree with me or ignore my posts. If you disagree with something I write on this forum, you are afforded by forum policies to write posts in disagreement with me or to ignore my posts. If you consider any of my posts as an effort to beat down you or anyone else you are more than welcome to exercise a degree of maturity, respect and intelligence by addressing me via PM, simply letting the issue drop by ignoring my posts, or rating me down.

Fifth, you are correct in illustrating the point that the Tuatha De Danann are a mythological race. That was the point of my post, albeit put rather long-windedly. I do agree with Frodo Baggins in that Tolkien was, at least indirectly, influenced by Irish Celtic mythology. It is important, though, to understand clear definitions and the boundaries of the terms we are throwing around. I don’t think that Tolkien was influenced by 19th century historical speculations, but by the actual stories in the mythological cycle.

In response to your question, Fifth, (i.e. “It is sometimes true that old sources can be unreliable, but do you think there are many new sources that say different things?”): There are. I provided a bibliography, all of which are very good books.

David Day writes in Tolkien’s Ring:

Tolkien’s Elves are not a race of pixies. They are a powerful, full-blooded people who closely resemble the pre-human Irish race of immortals call the Tuatha Dé Danann. Like the Tuatha Dé Danann, Tolkien’s Elves are taller and stronger than mortals, are incapable of suffering sickness, are possessed of more than human beauty, and are filled with greater wisdom in all things. They possess talismans, jewels and weapons that humans might consider magical in their powers. They ride supernatural horses and understand the languages of animals. They love song, poetry and music - all of which they compose and perform perfectly.

The Tuatha Dé Danann gradually withdrew from Ireland as mortal men migrated there from the east. With his ever-present theme of the dwindling of Elvish power on Middle-earth, Tolkien was following the tradition of the Celtic myth. The Elves’ westward sailings to timeless immortal realms across the sea, while the human race remained behind and usurped a mortal, diminished world trapped in time, were very much the theme of the diminishing of the Tuatha Dé Danann. (80)

and

Tolkien follows the Celtic tradition that suggests that immortals cannot survive in a mortal world; that they can remain only at the cost of their powers diminishing. Ultimately, there is a choice between remaining in the mortal world and leaving it forever for another immortal timeless world beyond the reach of human understanding. (81)

While Day’s book frustratingly lacks annotation and references, I think he is spot-on concerning this observation, as he is in all of chapter 8 (Celtic and Saxon Myths). Coupled by the Formor’s evil, one-eyed god-king, Balor (81), and the parallel between the Celtic “lady in white” and Tolkien’s description of Galadriel as “the White Lady” (82), Day constructs a pretty convincing argument that Tolkien was influenced by Irish Celtic mythology.

you can look up and resurch any religion, including wicca, and find a piece of it in his writtings.

Or can a Wiccan, Catholic, Jew, Muslim, or whatever, pick up Tolkien and see a piece of her or his beliefs there? Attempting to see the objective influences on the creative thought of JRR Tolkien is very different from providing his work with applicability to the individual reader. The question presented here by Frodo Baggins, and by others in other threads isn’t a hapless exercise in cultural relativism, but a fruitful pursuit, carried out by many others who have been published, to delve the depths of one of the more brilliant minds of the 20th century.

Edit: Capitalized “Wiccan”.

[ May 25, 2003: Message edited by: Bill Ferny ]

Edit: Removed some indirectly offensive material.

[ May 26, 2003: Message edited by: Bill Ferny ]