[Lyta_Underhill]

I ask forgiveness in advance, as I know this post wanders all over the place...

Tolkien, obviously, knew very well what a ‘spel’ was: a discourse or narrative told by someone. In the case of the magical spells “cast” by his characters, then, they are not doing anything ‘un’ or even ‘supernatural’ they are just telling particular kinds of stories or narratives.

I like your treatment of the word "spell" here, Fordim. It reminds me of the times I spent listening to my husband deliver lectures to students. He convinced them to enjoy learning, and many of his students were aghast after the fact that medieval literature could be so interesting and even relevant! In this way, he is a magician, since your average college freshman might not utter the terms "Freshman Composition" and "fun" in the same breath.

Just as the ‘magic’ that lies behind the Lorien cloaks or the One Ring are really just forms of ‘technology’ that we don’t understand, so too are the spells cast really just forms (or even dialects) of language that we don’t know. In effect, when Gandalf casts his spell on the door he is speaking a ‘stone-language’ and ‘convincing’ the door to remain shut.

Wasn't it Gandalf who said that it was dangerous to use an object whose art is "deeper than that which we possess ourselves?" in reference to the palantir? It makes me wonder what kind of convincing the seeing stones are doing. Obviously they are touching the mind of the user himself, and ones such as Saruman and Denethor, who did not possess the deep art, fall prey to the dangers of "magic" within the Stone itself. And what of Sauron's seeming "mastery" of the Stone? I'd say it is nothing more than an amplification and transmission of his basic nature, and all he does through the Stone is in keeping with the blindness and malice of his black soul. One wonders what "spel" was possessed and used by Fëanor when he created the stones; Gandalf himself wonders at the possibility of using the stone to look back at the West and see Fëanor at work. He wonders at the initial nature of the stone and not at how it might be used for his own benefit, as do Saruman and Denethor. And the fact that Aragorn has a rightful claim to its use is interesting as well, as it must tie in to the "spel" laid upon the Stones when they were gifted to Elendil. Art deeper than we ourselves possess, indeed!

Neithan: But this doesn't explain how Saruman lost his powers when his staff was broken. It could be that the staff breaking was only a cover for what happened under the surface. But why would Saruman keep up the act of using a staff after becoming a traitor, and I don't think that there is any precedent for one Maiar taking away another's power.

It is my conjecture that Gandalf spoke matter of factly when he says "Your staff is broken." The actual breaking simply reflects the state in which Saruman already finds himself. Saruman might have been maintaining an illusion with his voice and appearance for the benefit of Theoden and the assembled group, but Gandalf simply speaks a truth that uncovers a veil thrown rather feebly by Saruman, and the staff, which was, in fact, already broken, is now obviously broken to all who look upon it. Perhaps also, the staff is what we might call a "convincer." If the fearsome nature of a wizard brandishing his staff and uttering a "spel" is not convincing enough, he can use it to knock the unbeliever over the head!

Thanks also for the link to davem's illuminating post, Fordim!

from davem's post on the other thread: This is interesting, as it seems to show two kinds of magic at work - spell-casting, & the word of Command. It seems that casting spells is easier than speaking a word of Command. It appears the latter is reserved for extreme circumstances.

Somehow this distinction makes perfect sense in many realms. It would, for instance, take a whole lot more energy to force a chemical reaction that was not thermodynamically favorable than it would be to bring one about that was possible and only needed a bit of a push to reach its proper delta S I think the term is (thermodynamics class was sometime in the 1980's...showing my age and creaky brain here...). Anyway, my point is that since nature and reality is large and tends toward one thing, the attempt to wrench it away from its natural state and turn it another way must be taxing indeed and carry with it many unforeseen and dire consequences. In yet another flight off the deep end, I have heard Wiccans tell of curses cast in order to bring an evil fate on another person. Such spells were said to rebound ten times upon the caster if they were not justified. I'd say this fate befell Sauron not only in the drowning of Numenor, but for once and all when his whole "Ring strategy" backfired spectacularly.

It all seems to tie in to being "with Nature" or "against Nature." I hope I've actually said something useful in this post, as it has been all over the place and for that, I apologize.

Cheers!
Lyta