[Child of the 7th Age]

Whoa! I got called away by real life and duties in the Shire, and so many great posts went up while I was gone. Just wanted to thank everyone, respond to some ideas, and add some thoughts of my own. Please bear with me as this may be long.

Diamond18 -- I agree that sequestering the non-human races (if we define hobbits as non-human) makes their fading and disappearance from our own world more understandable. However, I see this as a "desirable" side effect in terms of Tolkien's writing rather than the main reason the author chose to structure his world in this fashion.

Lindil: I agree with your comment that different fates make it inevitable and natural that there will be separation between folk, and this will discourage closeness. I assume you are referring here to the issue of mortality vrs. immortality. This is a clear and constant theme when Tolkien discusses Men and Elves. However, this equation breaks down somewhat if we include dwarves and hobbits in the mix, since they share a similar fate to Man, at least in the sense that they are not immortal.

Helen --Thanks for the link. While I wouldn't use the term "patriotism", the author of the article does make a legitimate point about different folk having different styles, and not understanding or feeling comfortable with each other for that reason. I do think that's one factor, particularly in regard to the hobbits whose experience outside the Shire was strictly limited. But I think it goes beyond this, especially when you throw in the Elves.

Davem: Your own comments were the most thought provoking. I agreed with some, and strongly disagreed with others.

First, I do concur that Tolkien had to have been influenced by the models he saw in Norse, Finnish, etc. mythology. The old myths do indeed stress separate communities and peoples, each with their own traits and differing fate.

However, I've always thought of Tolkien like an onion, with layer upon layer of meaning. Just because we see and understand one layer, doesn't mean we should stop there. I think there is something more going on here than a simple adaptation or tweaking of the old northern myths.

I especially disagree with this statement:

The subject of 'gated communities' may have a great deal of relevance to twentieth century humans, but its one area where I don't think Tolkien has anything to say.

First, let's take the words "gated communities". It's obviously an anachronistic term. No one would dispute that. But Tolkien himself was very happy to use anachronistic terms when their underlying meaning suited his purpose. All the freight trains and umbrellas and fireworks in the Shire were there for a reason. They weren't just mistakes. At heart, they tells us something important about the nature of the Shire. And I would argue that the term "gated communities" can do the same in helping us get another perspective on the nature of Middle-earth and the free peoples who lived there.

You can use any definition that you choose. ( Bethberry's is a good one, I believe.) We're essentially talking about underlying attitudes, a desire to protect and preserve your own culture from outsiders, to hold yourself aloof and apart in some way.

By that criteria, the gated community is an important part of Middle-earth, both in what the author has to say and how he has his own characters respond. Just take two examples.

First, Lindil has already pointed to the example of the Elves who wanted to "embalm" their own society so they could have things stay the same through all eternity. In order to achieve this goal, or at least come close, the Elves had to create a gated community where outsiders were forbidden or at least discouraged from admission. There is a very famous passage in Tolkien's Letters where the author points out how destructive and limiting such an attitude can be.

Secondly, not only did the author personally address the issue of gated communities, he also had his own characters talk about them. Take a look at Quest of Erebor in UT (also reprinted in the last Annotated Hobbit). Gandalf states that the main reason he chose Bilbo was that, when he was younger, the hobbit was curious about Dwarves and Elves, and kept asking "questions about the wide world outside the Shire."

In telling this story to Frodo and his friends, Gandalf ironically cited the following interchange he'd had with Holman, Bilbo's gardener.

"Why I asked him where he [Bilbo] would be going, and when he would be back, and I don't know he says; and then he looks at me queerly. It depends if I met any, Holman, he says. It's the Elves' New Year tomorrow! A pity and him so kind a body. You wouldn't find a better from the Downs to the River."

I can't think of a better spokesman for the "gated Shire community" than Holman! So I feel that this particular term, admittedly anachronistic, does have relevence to Tolkien.

********************************************

I have more to say, but will be back later after a break for RL.

[ April 03, 2003: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]