[davem]

Originally Posted by The Phantom

Why in the world would you say that? I'd say that if you didn't do everything in your power to save your daughter, her innocent blood would be on your hands as well as the evil men who did it. That would be wrong.

Well, this is our true dilemma as fallen beings. Let me quote something I posted a long time ago:

I'm reminded of one of Charles Williams Arthurian poems, where Taliesin, the King's poet, while Arthur is leading the main battle to gain Kingship, goes to Camelot with a small force to depose Cradlemas, the dictator. There is a combat & Taliesin deals Cradlemas a mortal blow & stands watching him die. There's a line, that Taliesin felt 'Righted by earth, but from Heaven displighted', & that 'Cain & he had one immingled brain'. Taliesin has done the 'right' thing - killed a dictator, a monster, helped liberate the people & make way for the peace & justice of Arthur's rule. But at the same time he's taken a life, broken God's law. But what was the alternative? To stand by, be 'Righted by Heaven, but from earth displighted'? Reject his human responsibility & go live in an Ivory Tower & write poetry? Basically, Taliesin is a fallen being in a fallen world & will fail in one way or another, & can only be saved by 'Grace'.

(Full post here:http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpos...4&postcount=59)

In short, if I used torture to save my child I would be gaining a 'worldly' victory - I would be 'righted by earth', but I would be acting 'immorally' by going against a 'moral absolute' - ie It is wrong to torture another human being. So, I would be 'displighted from Heaven'. This, for me, is one of the central themes of LotR - we are fallen beings, & so live in an impossible situation. We cannot save ourselves - we are repeatedly put into situations where we are damned if we do & damned of we don't. I couldn't stand by & leave my child to be tortured to death. I would have an obligation to do everything I could to save her - like Taliesin was forced to kill Cradlemas - but I couldn't claim to have acted 'morally' in so doing.

Now, if this is how we look at the war with Sauron then you are completely right about using orcs and such. But I was looking at it as a physical battle in addition to a moral battle. If the west demonstrated perfect behavior and had impeccable table manners to boot, but Sauron takes over the world and kills all that is right, it's not really a victory, is it?

Its a moralvictory. To intentionally use Sauron's methods to defeat him - which is not what Aragorn does in calling the Dead to fulfil their oath - would perhaps bring about a worldly victory, but it would at the same time & for that very reason be an immoral one. The West would be 'displighted by Heaven', & thier cause would be lost even as they achieved their goal.

Let's face it - we all die - even my child would one day die whether I rescued her from the kidnappers or not. Death, 'defeat' (from a worldly perspective), is inevitable. We must, as far as we can, choose the moral path. We may not always be able to, but when we fall to do so we must acknowledge that failure & not pretend it was a 'success'.