[Child of the 7th Age]

I guess I will rejoin this discussion seeing that lemonade and a vegetable plate are being served. Cautiously sticks toe in the water.......

I personally did not see anything in these later discussions to suggest that Bethberry or anyone else was aguing for the viewpoint that Tolkien's writings should or could be treated as a religion. Like most of the other posters here, I would find such treatment of the writings to be incongruous, at the very least. From the author's own perspective, I am sure he would have found such suggestions highly disturbing.

But, at the same time, I see no problem in comparing Tolkien's mythology with that of other traditions, or asking the question whether spiritual insight can be found in a narrative which is not perceived to be a religious statement per se.

As far as the "spiritual limitations" of the books go, I agree that the writings were never intended to be used as a blueprint for
creating the outlines of any new religion or modes of worship. Such an assertion would border on the ridiculous. But I do find value in looking at a piece of literature, whether it is Tolkien or another author, and asking whether a reader can derive spiritual insight from it.

Let's take a piece of literature which has a totally different viewpoint than Tolkien--His Dark Materials trilogy by Pullman. The author is openly antagonistic to organized religion of any variety, but his writings are extremely original and do contain spiritual meaning, at least to this reader. Now that meaning may be quite different from what I find in Tolkien. But, in both cases, it is possible to read the books and come up with lessons, concepts, and ideas that, to my mind, are best labelled spiritual.

In a similar vein, it's also possible to read Tolkien and find insights into human psychology, even though the author was certainly not attempting to write a psychological treatise.

A work of fiction should reflect the totality of life and, for some, an important part of that totality has to be spiritual concepts and themes.

And why should any discussion of spiritual themes immediately transform itself into a "religious dispute"? I am not a Christian, but if an author is Catholic, I would be foolish to ignore those elements of his belief which may be reflected in his writings. No one is asking me to believe as he does, merely to be able to see those things which he himself thought were important.

Nor do I agree with KingCarleton that LotR is a "fairy tale". The Lord of the Rings and the Silmarillion have many elements which go beyond a fairy tale. Indeed, when I view Tolkien's subcreations, I see a three-part division: the Hobbit as Fairy Tale, Lord of the Rings as Legend, and the Silmarillion as Myth.

Bethberry, as far as your question about the "long defeat" and to what extent the Silm mirrors that concept, I would agree that psychological issues were a factor, but not the primary one. The main influence on Tolkien in this regard were his Christian beliefs. There are many personal statements in his Letters which indicate Tolkien felt that, as a Catholic, he did not see any way the problem of evil would be resolved within the circles of this world. In a personal sense this would mean death; in terms of the world as a whole it would have to be the end of time.

As far as the ancient epics go, they are even more pessimistic than Tolkien. The biggest difference between tolkien and these epics hinges on the question of free will. This theme is very evident in LotR, but totally absent from most ancient writings whose underlying motif is that of man's doom.

Yawn, that's it for now.

sharon, the 7th age hobbit