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Angry Hill Troll · 03-04-2005, 03:43 PM

This raises another question that I've wondered about: what were the relative strengths of the Noldor arriving in M-E with Feanor and Fingolfin, and the host of the west in the War of Wrath.

It seems that in accordance with the Michael Martinez quote cited earlier, that of the Noldor in Aman at the time of the Death of the Trees:

1/4 refused to leave or turned back with Finarfin

1/4 died fighting the Teleri, in storms, and particularly crossing the Helcaraxe

1/4 arrived in M-E following Feanor

1/4 arrived in M-E following Fingolfin (although he started with a larger host, many died crossing the Helcaraxe

The 25% of the Noldor following Feanor won the Dagor-nuin-Giliath by themselves. Furthermore, they were outnumbered, but won largely because the orcs could not withstand the light of Valinor which had not yet dimmed in their faces.

In the War of Wrath, the Teleri only provided transport, and did not fight. The Noldor who had remained in Aman did, as did the Vanyar. None of the elves of M-E participated in the War of Wrath. The few of the Edain who remained fought on the side of the elves, but this couldn't have been more than a token force.

So in the War of Wrath, the Vanyar (let's say there were half as many Vanyar as Noldor at the death of the Trees) and the 25% of the Noldor who didn't leave Aman, were the only ones fighting, plus some Maiar (it's unclear how many, but it seems that if the Valar wanted to overpower Morgoth by using Ainur, they would have come themselves).

Now, there was some increase in numbers of the Noldor and Vanyar in Aman in the intervening 600 years, but it doesn't appear that the military force in the War of Wrath was overwhelmingly larger than that of the Noldor exiles when they first arrived, and certainly not at the time of the Dagor Bragolach.

What was the differencein outcomes? Well, not having a curse helps! Also, the host of the West still had the light which the orcs couldn't withstand, and they had some backing from Maiar to help dealing with Dragons, Balrogs, etc. Finally, it seems that in defeating the Noldor, Morgoth had embarked on an arms race that severely weakened his own power and ability to control his armies. That seems to be what Tolkien seems to imply in his statement the Sauron was effectively greater in the Second Age than was Morgoth at the end of the First Age.

I'm sure there's a lot of room for discussion here... :-)

03-04-2005, 03:43 PM	#11
Angry Hill Troll Wight Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Ephel Duath Posts: 115	This raises another question that I've wondered about: what were the relative strengths of the Noldor arriving in M-E with Feanor and Fingolfin, and the host of the west in the War of Wrath. It seems that in accordance with the Michael Martinez quote cited earlier, that of the Noldor in Aman at the time of the Death of the Trees: 1/4 refused to leave or turned back with Finarfin 1/4 died fighting the Teleri, in storms, and particularly crossing the Helcaraxe 1/4 arrived in M-E following Feanor 1/4 arrived in M-E following Fingolfin (although he started with a larger host, many died crossing the Helcaraxe The 25% of the Noldor following Feanor won the Dagor-nuin-Giliath by themselves. Furthermore, they were outnumbered, but won largely because the orcs could not withstand the light of Valinor which had not yet dimmed in their faces. In the War of Wrath, the Teleri only provided transport, and did not fight. The Noldor who had remained in Aman did, as did the Vanyar. None of the elves of M-E participated in the War of Wrath. The few of the Edain who remained fought on the side of the elves, but this couldn't have been more than a token force. So in the War of Wrath, the Vanyar (let's say there were half as many Vanyar as Noldor at the death of the Trees) and the 25% of the Noldor who didn't leave Aman, were the only ones fighting, plus some Maiar (it's unclear how many, but it seems that if the Valar wanted to overpower Morgoth by using Ainur, they would have come themselves). Now, there was some increase in numbers of the Noldor and Vanyar in Aman in the intervening 600 years, but it doesn't appear that the military force in the War of Wrath was overwhelmingly larger than that of the Noldor exiles when they first arrived, and certainly not at the time of the Dagor Bragolach. What was the differencein outcomes? Well, not having a curse helps! Also, the host of the West still had the light which the orcs couldn't withstand, and they had some backing from Maiar to help dealing with Dragons, Balrogs, etc. Finally, it seems that in defeating the Noldor, Morgoth had embarked on an arms race that severely weakened his own power and ability to control his armies. That seems to be what Tolkien seems to imply in his statement the Sauron was effectively greater in the Second Age than was Morgoth at the end of the First Age. I'm sure there's a lot of room for discussion here... :-)