[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

Okay, to put it another way, the origin of the orks is tied not only to the issue of whether they have free will or not, but also whether they have souls. More or less, I would say that it appears plain that if the orks have true free will, they must also have a soul. If so, then yes we come to a confusing muddle of whether it is just to condemn all orks as evil.

On the other hand, if orks do not have free will, and thus a soul, there is not problem in condemning them as evil, because they are essentially the same as animals, and not destined for eternity in any way, shape, or form.

Well, as I said, the evidence suggests to me that they (or at least some of them) were sentient, which suggests to me that they had souls, even if their free will was limited. But why is it just to condemn beasts to a life of brutality and suffering? Do lives not matter to Eru if they don't have souls?

Originally Posted by davem

Why is this problematic. Orcs play their part in the cosmic drama & after death are able to see the truth & make a decision as to their moral stance & Eru's judgement of them would be based on that.

It is problematic because they still have to live out their lives (and quite possibly some of them were "immortal" in the same way that Elves are) in a state of evil being without them having any choice in the matter. Why should they be denied "worldly" choice, when it is enjoyed by the other races of Arda?

Well, He had obviously foreseen His own intervention from the beginning, so it was not a spur of the moment decision....

But it was not part of his plan, since that did not anticipate Melchor's rebellion. Which suggests that he is able to change his plan where necessary. So, to return to alatar's point, he could have intervened to prevent Melchor's tainting of Arda (and foreseen that) if he wished. To do so would have involved interfering with his gift of free will to Melchor, yes, but no more so than his later interventions with regard to those affected by them.