View Single Post
Old 04-09-2005, 02:25 PM   #8
littlemanpoet
Itinerant Songster
 
littlemanpoet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: The Edge of Faerie
Posts: 7,066
littlemanpoet is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.littlemanpoet is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
a partial summing up

Thanks, everyone, for your well considered replies. It's been enjoyable reading.

Quote:
I for one agree with Professor Tolkien; if Arwen's banner for Aragorn had a cross emblazoned on it, or if Gondor's seven stars were Stars of David, I think I would be automatically inclined to view Middle-earth as an allegorical rather than a purely fantastic world, and its purpose as evangelical rather than eucatastrophic.
Well said, Son of Númenor. I think that this was in part Tolkien's criticism of C.S. Lewis's Narnia Chronicles.

Quote:
How could an epic, purported to be set deep in the years B.C., contain Christian symbolism while still maintaining its cohesiveness with real history?
Formendacil, there is much in Tolkien's Letters that deals directly with this (I looked it up in the index under "Religion".) From Letter 156, discussing Gandalf's return:
Quote:
...I have purposely kept all allusions to the highest matters down to mere hints, perceptible only by the most attentive, or kept them under unexplained symbolic forms. So God and the 'angelic' gods, the Lords or Powers of the West, only peep through in such places as Gandalf's conversation with Frodo: 'behind that there was something else at work, beyond any design of the Ring-maker's; or in Faramir's Númenórean grace at dinner.
Elsewhere in the Letters he refers to Númenór as the one place where religious practice was clearly portrayed. As a note to the same Letter 156, Tolkien writes,
Quote:
The Elves often called on Varda-Elbereth, the Queen of the Blessed Realm, their especial friend; and so does Frodo.
Note that Frodo is the most Elvish of the hobbits. There is an obvious connection between Varda, and Mary the Mother of God.

So the answer to your question, Formendacil, is "very carefully". But there it is: Tolkien pulled it off.

Quote:
...it is inevitable that Tolkien would have unwittingly/unconsciously used some the less obvious symbols.
I'm sure, Lalwendë, that you must be right. Still, I never cease to be astounded, in reading the Letters, how much is in LotR that Tolkien was quite conscious about including, not least of all, archetypes.

Quote:
...trees have a role in Christian symbolism but are not an exclusively Christian emblem and so it does not jar that The White Tree is symbolic of the rejuvenation of Gondor.
In reading that book that mentioned the Trickster, Mithalwen, I discovered that the Tree of Life is a common theme throughout mythologies ranging from the Mayan to the Oriental to the Semitic to the northwestern European. I guess that makes it a pretty powerful archetype. Tolkien did love trees, and understood archetypes.

Quote:
As stated, his intent was not to proselytize - at least overtly - but to entertain. This actually may be a more effective evangelizing method in that more readers are drawn to the works, and those so inclined (or hooked) may read more about Tolkien's life, and also may start looking in to his religious philosophy...
Alatar, you are coming quite close to persuading me.

Quote:
I would think that putting a religious symbol would wrench the reader from the suspended state of disbelief back into this world.
Thanks, Imladris, for including this concept from a writer's point of view. I certainly appreciate all that has been offered from the valuable readers' points of view, but this was particularly what I needed to be reminded of. Thanks again, Immy.

Quote:
I think that is why Till We have Faces is more mythic than say, The Chronicles of Narnia I don't recall any religious symbol (such as Aslan), yet it was by far more powerful than Chronicles of Narnia.
I am in agreement, Imladris.

Just to clear up the issue of belief in myths, early folk of every culture did actually believe their myths. It was the growth of abstract thought in each culture (or a more effective religion) that caused doubt regarding the myths; as in, "hey, the world doesn't really work like that; I've found a more empiric explanation; the myth must be wrong". For example, Plato didn't believe the myths were true, but believed they should be taught for their moral value.
littlemanpoet is offline   Reply With Quote