[alatar]

Originally Posted by bilbo_baggins

That is where you confuse me, alatar. You say the evidence supports what you see hear and know yet the evidence comes from so much assumption that you see hear and know correctly. How do you know that know?

I'm also a pragmatist, and so avoid the wondering whether I am a butterfly imagining that I'm a human posting to a Tolkien-lover's forum. Time is short...

And granted, I do make assumptions and accept certain data/evidence by faith - again, time is short and I'm not exactly sure how one goes about verifying that water really is comprised of two hydrogen and one oxygen atoms.

Coming from a Christian upbringing, I have looked for evidence that confirms some of the more miraculous claims, and have (1) not found any and (2) have found more secular explanations regarding them. Occam's razor says that I should choose the simpler explanation, and so I do.

Looking deeper, I have tried to figure out 'how it all works.' In Tolkien's world it would seem that you just show up, choose sides (unless you're an orc, but that's a whole other thread ), and live your life accordingly. Be good, honest and merciful and you will go one way. It probably helps to acknowledge Iluvatar now and again, but if memory serves, no one in LOTR stops to do this. Our world is not so plain and simple.

As I am willing to allow a little of my own thought creep into the possibility that I see something on a computer screen, which I assume does exist, I am putting a lot of faith into something that doesn't demand my faith. Why do you put faith in yourself?

I do, but I also know that (1) I am probably fooling myself and (2) that I can be fooled just like anyone else. So there's always questions...

So glossing over the fact, briefly, that you can allow things to seem like something to you, you have just stated that religion is something akin to a unquestioning, unseeking, irrefutable dogma forced by some heirarchy.

I can easily believe that my experiences are limited and therefore somewhat skewed, yet at some point (an assumption) I think you are discouraged from noticing that the emperor has no clothes.

In some cases you are true. But I do hope you realize that the major religions do no such thing. They ask you to make assumptions just like the ones you do to allow yourself to believe science works. They ask you only to make an exploratory step.

I have seen it otherwise, but again my experience may be limited.

To retrieve the theme of the thread, I for one believe that Tolkien uses his religious emblems/symbols to allow the reader to make a 'jump of assumption', just as one does to allow eucatastrophe to set in. The jump I speak of, however, lets the reader think there is something worth fighting for. Remeber Sam and Frodo in TTT? Frodo is despondent and believes that there is no point. Sam cheers him up. We should make an assumption and let Tolkien take us away.

I found Tolkien's allusions great as you needn't be a member of any religion to appreciate his works. When Sam talks about the stars being out of reach of the darkness (or something like that), I feel as he does and I assume as any religious person reading the same.