The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum - View Single Post

**lindil** · 08-14-2003, 06:24 PM

the ever astute Lord of A. posted --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I believe Tolkien's world is a complex mix of free will, hope, chance and fate, all enmeshed in a complex web that I doubt even Tolkien fully understood.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

TO this I would add that as Gurjieff has struggled to make plain, their is a state called wakefullness that is beyond that which we call 'not asleep'. We use it in slang [ Gandalf telling Pippin in the Minas Tirith chapter - 'IF you have walked all these days with your eyes shut and your ears closed, then wake up!' is an excellent example].

To be 'awake' means to have your mind clear, your heart open and to be 'present' in your body and truly experiencing your senses, all at the same time. This is rare, but I always had the feeling that JRRT managed to convey this with the Elves and also with Faramir and Aragorn. They were especially 'present'. Also Frodo gains this quality after Mordor.

So to relate this to the original point re: freewill and whther Tolkien was a fatalist, I think we can see that in addition to the above factors mentioned by LoA, there is what Gurdjieff called quite rightly, 'the Law of Accident'. It is this law that Anarion succombed to when smote upon the Helm in the seige of Barad-Dur. It is this law that says even the pure motived Vanyar summoned to fight Morgoth at the War of Wrath, when thousands of Arrows are shot at them, some will fall.

To become free of the Law of Accident is a great thing, it means that you have some how become important enough in God's plan to be worth saving [temporally - the question of the spritual ramifications are far more complex] from a tight situation. Merry and Pippin's escapte from the Uruk-Hai seems a good example, as is the 'rescue' of Frodo, Sam and Pippin by Gildor and Co.

Also in the final analysis, JRRT's hope [and the hope of the Dunedain and Men in the LEgendarium] was clearly stated to be 'beyond the circles of the world'. I.E. with God, and as far as possible for him, in harmony with his Revelation.

08-14-2003, 06:24 PM	#12
lindil Seeker of the Straight Path Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal Posts: 1,680	the ever astute Lord of A. posted -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I believe Tolkien's world is a complex mix of free will, hope, chance and fate, all enmeshed in a complex web that I doubt even Tolkien fully understood. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TO this I would add that as Gurjieff has struggled to make plain, their is a state called wakefullness that is beyond that which we call 'not asleep'. We use it in slang [ Gandalf telling Pippin in the Minas Tirith chapter - 'IF you have walked all these days with your eyes shut and your ears closed, then wake up!' is an excellent example]. To be 'awake' means to have your mind clear, your heart open and to be 'present' in your body and truly experiencing your senses, all at the same time. This is rare, but I always had the feeling that JRRT managed to convey this with the Elves and also with Faramir and Aragorn. They were especially 'present'. Also Frodo gains this quality after Mordor. So to relate this to the original point re: freewill and whther Tolkien was a fatalist, I think we can see that in addition to the above factors mentioned by LoA, there is what Gurdjieff called quite rightly, 'the Law of Accident'. It is this law that Anarion succombed to when smote upon the Helm in the seige of Barad-Dur. It is this law that says even the pure motived Vanyar summoned to fight Morgoth at the War of Wrath, when thousands of Arrows are shot at them, some will fall. To become free of the Law of Accident is a great thing, it means that you have some how become important enough in God's plan to be worth saving [temporally - the question of the spritual ramifications are far more complex] from a tight situation. Merry and Pippin's escapte from the Uruk-Hai seems a good example, as is the 'rescue' of Frodo, Sam and Pippin by Gildor and Co. Also in the final analysis, JRRT's hope [and the hope of the Dunedain and Men in the LEgendarium] was clearly stated to be 'beyond the circles of the world'. I.E. with God, and as far as possible for him, in harmony with his Revelation. __________________ The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.