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05-18-2005, 01:02 PM

Wowie, interesting topic here! But as for me, I must personally say that I do not think that Celebrian was raped. For several reasons actually. Tolkien mentioned in his writings that an elf who was raped would immediately leave their bodies and go to the Halls of Mandos...and quite frankly, seeing as Celebrian stuck around after she was captured for another year, I don't think that that is a clear indication that something like that happened to her. And besides that, what is all this talk I am seeing about everyone thinking that a morgul-poisoning wound is not severe enough to make an elf lose delight in Middle Earth?! Did you see what happened to FRODO?! I mean, this poison that the Orcs used on Celebrian is some of the darkest in Middle Earth. From what was portrayed, we can see that it hurts you physically, mentally, and spiritually. Frodo was almost turned into a WRAITH for pity's sake! Besides the fact that usually whenever Tolkien talks about what happened to Celebrian, he usually sticks the little point of the morgul poisoning in there among everything else, so to me, it really looks like he is hinting toward the fact that THAT was the reason why she left. Besides, think of the scars left on her body after all of that! Her face was probably mangled from the burns and cuts and everything that the Orcs used to hurt her while she was captivity, and her whole body just probably had these lasting marks on them that even Elrond couldn't banish. After all, he can heal her, but things like scars are just marks. There weren't any fancy band-aids or powders back then to make scars fade away, like there might be today. And even besides that, just the simple fact of the memories and nightmares that she has to live with after all of that... no matter who her mother was, Celebrian is still female, and an elf at that. And why is being an elf an important thing here? Because elves were spoken of to being very tender-hearted, as they can die from a broken heart.

And upon the detail that she might have been able to survive a little longer because she was raped by an ORC and not an ELF...come on. Do you REALLY think it would be any easier on her to be raped by an Orc? Rape is rape. The deed can be done the same way by an Orc as with an elf. So if Celebrian was really raped by an Orc, she would still die. Her body and spirit has still been defiled, no matter who or what it was defiled by.

And I see that we've been kind of playing around with the supposed "gap" that Tolkien left for us by using the word "torment" instead of the word "torture". So... upon seeing this I decided to look up the word in an online dictionary, and guess what the outcome was...

Dictionary 1 Etymology: Middle English, from Old French, from Latin tormentum torture; akin to torquEre to twist -- more at TORTURE
1 : the infliction of torture (as by rack or wheel)
2 : extreme pain or anguish of body or mind : AGONY
3 : a source of vexation or pain

Dictionary 2 • noun 1 severe physical or mental suffering.

Dictionary 3
tor·ment [ tawr mént ]

1. inflict pain on somebody or something: to inflict torture, pain, or anguish on somebody or something

And the other definations that came along with that all had to do with "teasing", so I decided not to stick that in there...but really. Does that really sound like Tolkien was majorly hinting toward something more serious than your average torture? I don't think so. The word "torment" CAME from the word "torture", and it basically means the same thing. And it is mainly phyiscal stuff, like being poked, and burned, and scratched, etc. Now if he had said the word "assault", then maybe we'd be opened up to a bit more. But it really sounds like he's talking about torture there. And I tend to agree with that, since Orcs, from what I can tell from their personalities and the way they are described, seem to be the sort that would find more pleasure in the torture instead of some kind of sexual assault. Orcs, to me, really seem (from the point of their naturally descructive nature) like the types who would enjoy more of the wounds that they can see and hear, like blood, screams, ugly wounds, burns, deep cuts, etc. They don't seem like they would go lusting over beautiful women, since they despise elves and "ALL THINGS BEAUTIFUL". So why would they have this big sex-desire thing going on?

And many ask why the Orcs would have kept Celebrian instead of killing her right off, if not to take advantage of her beauty and the fact that she is female? Well, there are actually several reasons. 1) She is a lady of importance. High rank, high respect. The game is always more fun when you are dealing with someone valuable who is supposedly not easily broken. 2) She is an elf! Tolkien mentioned that Orcs have a special hatred for the eldar and their beauty, (which is another reason why I don't think they kept the beautiful and fair Celebrian to rape her) so why not take advantage of one of high rank to torture and have a little fun with?

And another thought on the subject that Tolkien may have been secretly "leaving a gap" for us to guess with in his using of the word "torment"...let's just be careful at how we put this stuff now. The LAST thing we want to do is take this genius' work and turn it into something it is NOT. For example (to use something written before this), someone says "well...it kind of SOUNDS like it sometimes...so I'm betting that Frodo and Sam are gay!".

YIKES!! Can you even IMAGINE the look on Tolkien's face if he saw that?! I know I be VERY mad at anyone who did something like that to my finest work. And I know, to each his own opinion. But as I said, let's just be careful here. Heaven knows there are ways to torture someone that can be seen as bad as rape or worse! Humans these days over in other countries and in captivity go MAD from torture!

So yes, as "Celebrian" said, to assume rape in Tolkien's writings is still very spectulative. Let's just watch what we say about the dear old professor, and just leave his words as thety are. I know, I know, to each his own opinion...and I have just given you mine. *blushes* I hope I haven't offended anyone, but after a bit of research, well, you can see why I may differ in my opinions from a few people on this thread.

~Adel

P.S. I do agree with Lalaith. Elladan and Elrohir weren't necessary so horrified and angry at their mother's capture because she was raped. Think of what YOU would do if you walked into an Orcish torture den and saw someone using hot metals and rusty blades to ravage YOUR mother! I'd never see my brothers again...

05-18-2005, 01:02 PM	#7
Adel Guest Posts: n/a	Hmmmm... Wowie, interesting topic here! But as for me, I must personally say that I do not think that Celebrian was raped. For several reasons actually. Tolkien mentioned in his writings that an elf who was raped would immediately leave their bodies and go to the Halls of Mandos...and quite frankly, seeing as Celebrian stuck around after she was captured for another year, I don't think that that is a clear indication that something like that happened to her. And besides that, what is all this talk I am seeing about everyone thinking that a morgul-poisoning wound is not severe enough to make an elf lose delight in Middle Earth?! Did you see what happened to FRODO?! I mean, this poison that the Orcs used on Celebrian is some of the darkest in Middle Earth. From what was portrayed, we can see that it hurts you physically, mentally, and spiritually. Frodo was almost turned into a WRAITH for pity's sake! Besides the fact that usually whenever Tolkien talks about what happened to Celebrian, he usually sticks the little point of the morgul poisoning in there among everything else, so to me, it really looks like he is hinting toward the fact that THAT was the reason why she left. Besides, think of the scars left on her body after all of that! Her face was probably mangled from the burns and cuts and everything that the Orcs used to hurt her while she was captivity, and her whole body just probably had these lasting marks on them that even Elrond couldn't banish. After all, he can heal her, but things like scars are just marks. There weren't any fancy band-aids or powders back then to make scars fade away, like there might be today. And even besides that, just the simple fact of the memories and nightmares that she has to live with after all of that... no matter who her mother was, Celebrian is still female, and an elf at that. And why is being an elf an important thing here? Because elves were spoken of to being very tender-hearted, as they can die from a broken heart. And upon the detail that she might have been able to survive a little longer because she was raped by an ORC and not an ELF...come on. Do you REALLY think it would be any easier on her to be raped by an Orc? Rape is rape. The deed can be done the same way by an Orc as with an elf. So if Celebrian was really raped by an Orc, she would still die. Her body and spirit has still been defiled, no matter who or what it was defiled by. And I see that we've been kind of playing around with the supposed "gap" that Tolkien left for us by using the word "torment" instead of the word "torture". So... upon seeing this I decided to look up the word in an online dictionary, and guess what the outcome was... Dictionary 1 Etymology: Middle English, from Old French, from Latin tormentum torture; akin to torquEre to twist -- more at TORTURE 1 : the infliction of torture (as by rack or wheel) 2 : extreme pain or anguish of body or mind : AGONY 3 : a source of vexation or pain Dictionary 2 • noun 1 severe physical or mental suffering. Dictionary 3 tor·ment [ tawr mént ] 1. inflict pain on somebody or something: to inflict torture, pain, or anguish on somebody or something And the other definations that came along with that all had to do with "teasing", so I decided not to stick that in there...but really. Does that really sound like Tolkien was majorly hinting toward something more serious than your average torture? I don't think so. The word "torment" CAME from the word "torture", and it basically means the same thing. And it is mainly phyiscal stuff, like being poked, and burned, and scratched, etc. Now if he had said the word "assault", then maybe we'd be opened up to a bit more. But it really sounds like he's talking about torture there. And I tend to agree with that, since Orcs, from what I can tell from their personalities and the way they are described, seem to be the sort that would find more pleasure in the torture instead of some kind of sexual assault. Orcs, to me, really seem (from the point of their naturally descructive nature) like the types who would enjoy more of the wounds that they can see and hear, like blood, screams, ugly wounds, burns, deep cuts, etc. They don't seem like they would go lusting over beautiful women, since they despise elves and "ALL THINGS BEAUTIFUL". So why would they have this big sex-desire thing going on? And many ask why the Orcs would have kept Celebrian instead of killing her right off, if not to take advantage of her beauty and the fact that she is female? Well, there are actually several reasons. 1) She is a lady of importance. High rank, high respect. The game is always more fun when you are dealing with someone valuable who is supposedly not easily broken. 2) She is an elf! Tolkien mentioned that Orcs have a special hatred for the eldar and their beauty, (which is another reason why I don't think they kept the beautiful and fair Celebrian to rape her) so why not take advantage of one of high rank to torture and have a little fun with? And another thought on the subject that Tolkien may have been secretly "leaving a gap" for us to guess with in his using of the word "torment"...let's just be careful at how we put this stuff now. The LAST thing we want to do is take this genius' work and turn it into something it is NOT. For example (to use something written before this), someone says "well...it kind of SOUNDS like it sometimes...so I'm betting that Frodo and Sam are gay!". YIKES!! Can you even IMAGINE the look on Tolkien's face if he saw that?! I know I be VERY mad at anyone who did something like that to my finest work. And I know, to each his own opinion. But as I said, let's just be careful here. Heaven knows there are ways to torture someone that can be seen as bad as rape or worse! Humans these days over in other countries and in captivity go MAD from torture! So yes, as "Celebrian" said, to assume rape in Tolkien's writings is still very spectulative. Let's just watch what we say about the dear old professor, and just leave his words as thety are. I know, I know, to each his own opinion...and I have just given you mine. blushes I hope I haven't offended anyone, but after a bit of research, well, you can see why I may differ in my opinions from a few people on this thread. ~Adel P.S. I do agree with Lalaith. Elladan and Elrohir weren't necessary so horrified and angry at their mother's capture because she was raped. Think of what YOU would do if you walked into an Orcish torture den and saw someone using hot metals and rusty blades to ravage YOUR mother! I'd never see my brothers again... Last edited by Adel; 05-18-2005 at 01:06 PM.