[davem]

Originally Posted by Gurthang

So men live exactly the same as all the other inhabitants of Middle-Earth, only that the choices they make affect their afterlife.

But if Men are in exactly the same position as everyone else, why mention Men's freedom at all?

they should have a virtue to shape their life, amid the powers and chances of the world, beyond the Music of the Ainur, which is as fate to all things else;

This, which I keep repeating, I know, says something specific about Men 'amid the powers & chances of the world' - not outside it. If Men's power to shape their fate within the world is the same as that of Valar, Maiar & Elves, then why mention it?

So men live exactly the same as all the other inhabitants of Middle-Earth, only that the choices they make affect their afterlife.

So aren't Elves & Ainur also judged on the choices they make in life - or are they simply 'robots'?

As regards Saruman - if he was bound by his decisions made during the Music why would Gandalf make such an effort to get him to repent at Isengard? Gandalf clearly believes that Saruman has the ablity to make choices about what road he would take, though not about the 'events' he has to experience - like dying in the Shire perhaps.

Unless you believe that Gandalf also was bound by what he had 'sung' in the Music & had no free will either.

This idea that everything - right down to the moral choices individuals made, even the thoughts they thought - was fixed, makes the whole story a nonsense, because nothing anyone did was a result of free will, & then how can anyone be held accountable after their death.

What I'm suggesting is that Valar, Maiar & Elves have absolute moral freedom to make choicesabout how they live, but not about what they will experience - the Noldor will return to Middle-earth, & Feanor will die there in the way he did - but the way they come to those experiences will be a result of their own freely willed choices - hence they can be held accountable for their actions after they die. Men, on the other hand, are not (because they are not bound to the world in the same way) destined to have those pre-ordained experiences - they have both freedom of thought - as all other races have - & also the freedom to choose what experiences they will have, what events they will be caught up in - as Aragorn could choose whether to go on the paths of the Dead.

But did Legolas have that choice? Was it in the Music that he would go that way? If so, what would he have done of Aragorn had chosen not to go that way? And what about Elladan & Ellrohir? Did the half-elven have the freedom of Men or were they bound by the Music to go?

I think its pushing it to suggest that Men's freedom only comes into play after they die, because we don't know what, or even if anything at all, happens to Men after death. I think if you just read that sentence its plain that its refering to Men's freedom of action within the world, & that 'beyond' in that context doesn't mean beyond/outside Arda, but beyond/outside the plan the Music laid out by the Music:

shape their life, amid the powers and chances of the world, beyond the Music of the Ainur Which is as fate to all things else

If we take this to mean that Men's freedom lies only beyond the world (as opposed to beyond the plan but within the world) then we're saying that Valar, Maiar & Elves have no freedom either during life or after death. They are 'robots' both within Arda & outside it, while Men are only 'robots' while they are in the world.