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Lyta_Underhill · 05-16-2003, 12:05 AM

I suppose it was inevitable that I would find this thread eventually. It is refreshing to see such well-considered analyses of Mr. Peregrin Took, who is definitely not an idiot!

One aspect I have not seen addressed directly is really a look at his rapport with another of the Fellowship and how the other may have seen something of the cosmic "other world" in Pippin that was hidden but worked for the good of all Middle Earth. I am talking about Gandalf! Gandalf seemed to take special interest in Pippin, admonishing him and looking after him very closely. One could argue that this is the grandfatherly figure keeping the young one in line, but I also think that Gandalf saw a spark in Pippin that ties in to the "instrument of divine will" idea and also to the idea he expounds explicity upon to Frodo concerning the "even the wise cannot see all ends" concept. Gandalf is the one who argues for Pippin's inclusion in the Fellowship and is the one who acts upon and totally realizes the import of Pippin's palantir adventure. I cannot put it into words very well at the moment, but I think that Gandalf has an inkling of the cosmic will, the divine will, if you will, and he knows that it cannot be forced or even most times be completely aware of itself (thus Pippin's blind impulsiveness). Even he, the very wise, cannot see all ends, as he tells Frodo, so I think he sees the spark of one who acts in the moment, but always for the good and who, if guided (for certainly Gandalf guided Pippin!), could be put where he could do the most good.

Like mark12_30, I can see the thread of "being an instrument in God's hands" in both Frodo and Pippin (my two favorite characters, incidentally!), but the difference may be that Frodo is more personally aware of the impossibility of his quest and its deeper significance and effects, and he has knowledge of this "other world" that Pippin seems to float on top of. Perhaps it takes a "Fool of a Took" to truly follow the winds of Eru where they may take him. And Gandalf, in true Istari form, creates the surfaces on which he turns with the wind and slowly awakens.

I do like the idea that Pippin is like Bilbo that some of you have put forth! I didn't really think about it, but Gandalf played a similar role in their lives I think, although he gave Bilbo a shove out the door (so to speak) and simply a vote for approval to Elrond in Pippin's case, knowing that Tookishness would be a rough horse to ride, but that it could bring them galloping into some rich lands and unforeseen solutions to unforeseen problems...

On this tangent, I think that the whole quest is one of those things where no one really knows how it will be accomplished; after all, who could really know whether Frodo would just throw the thing in the Cracks of Doom? You can't. So you send Samwise and tell him not to leave Frodo alone! How could anyone have foreseen the way things played out--Pippin's sudden allegiance to Denethor in memory of the valiant and fallen Boromir--Merry's unsettling distress when Pippin is taken away and his solace in his great love for Rohan and Theoden, which culminated in the destruction of the Marshal of Mordor--the Witch King of Angmar! The threads are endless, intertwined and each followed lovingly to their conclusions (and beyond in the reader's minds). Hindsight is an author creating plot points to fit the story's needs, but serendipity even there will strike, and Tolkien certainly was taken by surprise when scenes presented themselves to him--was it Lorien that he didn't know about until it was presented to him? Ah, but I am off on too tangled a tangent. Forgive my rambling post, but Pippin will do that to me!

End note: I must say I really loved the idea of Pippin being "in-between" and I hadn't thought of it that way quite before. There is a concept in martial arts called Sanshin, acting in the moment, going with the flow, so to speak, and I think that Pippin's impulsiveness develops into this Sanshin, until at the Gate of Morannon, despite all his regrets and wish that Merry could be there with him on the bleak battlefield, he acts in the moment to save Beregond from the troll, killing the great troll in the process and laughing a little with his inner voice at the whole thing, death and all, even as it seems to be taking him (I have heard that Tolkien considered actually killing Pippin at this point--thank God he didn't!), and it become like a story--Bilbo's story, and time and space disappear. But again, I digress. Can anyone tell I have a thing for Pippin? [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Cheers,
Lyta

05-16-2003, 12:05 AM	#27
Lyta_Underhill Haunted Halfling Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: an uncounted length of steps--floating between air molecules Posts: 841	I suppose it was inevitable that I would find this thread eventually. It is refreshing to see such well-considered analyses of Mr. Peregrin Took, who is definitely not an idiot! One aspect I have not seen addressed directly is really a look at his rapport with another of the Fellowship and how the other may have seen something of the cosmic "other world" in Pippin that was hidden but worked for the good of all Middle Earth. I am talking about Gandalf! Gandalf seemed to take special interest in Pippin, admonishing him and looking after him very closely. One could argue that this is the grandfatherly figure keeping the young one in line, but I also think that Gandalf saw a spark in Pippin that ties in to the "instrument of divine will" idea and also to the idea he expounds explicity upon to Frodo concerning the "even the wise cannot see all ends" concept. Gandalf is the one who argues for Pippin's inclusion in the Fellowship and is the one who acts upon and totally realizes the import of Pippin's palantir adventure. I cannot put it into words very well at the moment, but I think that Gandalf has an inkling of the cosmic will, the divine will, if you will, and he knows that it cannot be forced or even most times be completely aware of itself (thus Pippin's blind impulsiveness). Even he, the very wise, cannot see all ends, as he tells Frodo, so I think he sees the spark of one who acts in the moment, but always for the good and who, if guided (for certainly Gandalf guided Pippin!), could be put where he could do the most good. Like mark12_30, I can see the thread of "being an instrument in God's hands" in both Frodo and Pippin (my two favorite characters, incidentally!), but the difference may be that Frodo is more personally aware of the impossibility of his quest and its deeper significance and effects, and he has knowledge of this "other world" that Pippin seems to float on top of. Perhaps it takes a "Fool of a Took" to truly follow the winds of Eru where they may take him. And Gandalf, in true Istari form, creates the surfaces on which he turns with the wind and slowly awakens. I do like the idea that Pippin is like Bilbo that some of you have put forth! I didn't really think about it, but Gandalf played a similar role in their lives I think, although he gave Bilbo a shove out the door (so to speak) and simply a vote for approval to Elrond in Pippin's case, knowing that Tookishness would be a rough horse to ride, but that it could bring them galloping into some rich lands and unforeseen solutions to unforeseen problems... On this tangent, I think that the whole quest is one of those things where no one really knows how it will be accomplished; after all, who could really know whether Frodo would just throw the thing in the Cracks of Doom? You can't. So you send Samwise and tell him not to leave Frodo alone! How could anyone have foreseen the way things played out--Pippin's sudden allegiance to Denethor in memory of the valiant and fallen Boromir--Merry's unsettling distress when Pippin is taken away and his solace in his great love for Rohan and Theoden, which culminated in the destruction of the Marshal of Mordor--the Witch King of Angmar! The threads are endless, intertwined and each followed lovingly to their conclusions (and beyond in the reader's minds). Hindsight is an author creating plot points to fit the story's needs, but serendipity even there will strike, and Tolkien certainly was taken by surprise when scenes presented themselves to him--was it Lorien that he didn't know about until it was presented to him? Ah, but I am off on too tangled a tangent. Forgive my rambling post, but Pippin will do that to me! End note: I must say I really loved the idea of Pippin being "in-between" and I hadn't thought of it that way quite before. There is a concept in martial arts called Sanshin, acting in the moment, going with the flow, so to speak, and I think that Pippin's impulsiveness develops into this Sanshin, until at the Gate of Morannon, despite all his regrets and wish that Merry could be there with him on the bleak battlefield, he acts in the moment to save Beregond from the troll, killing the great troll in the process and laughing a little with his inner voice at the whole thing, death and all, even as it seems to be taking him (I have heard that Tolkien considered actually killing Pippin at this point--thank God he didn't!), and it become like a story--Bilbo's story, and time and space disappear. But again, I digress. Can anyone tell I have a thing for Pippin? [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] Cheers, Lyta __________________ “…she laid herself to rest upon Cerin Amroth; and there is her green grave, until the world is changed, and all the days of her life are utterly forgotten by men that come after, and elanor and niphredil bloom no more east of the Sea.”