[The Saucepan Man]

Some great responses. Thank you to all who have contributed.

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

I wonder if book sales info is available for various countries, both for English and translated forms.

I wondered that too, as I tend to agree that merely going by Barrow-Downs membership is unlikely to be the most accurate of indicators, given language issues. I tried Googling, but found little of use. Nevertheless, I do have a hunch that Tolkien’s works are more widely read in what might broadly be described as the “west” than elsewhere.

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

One point to be considered about the books is the quality of the translation into other languages. We have Tolkien's thoughts on various translations, but if the books aren't 'page turners' in a person's native language, they won't attract many readers.

A good point. Although the problems that have been referred to with, for example, the German translations do not seem to have affected its popularity in Germany. Then again, English is commonly spoken to a high standard in many parts of Germany and the same applies, I believe, with regard to the Netherlands and the Scandinavian countries. And, while the same might be said of France and (to a lesser extent) Spain and Italy, I guess the “own language preference” point explains the lack of Downers from these countries.

I would expect the language barrier to be the greatest obstacle where an entirely different alphabet is used. That will certainly be an issue in most Islamic and Far Eastern countries. However, the Russian alphabet is unique and, as HI has indicated, Tolkien has (or at least had) quite a following in Russia, so I think that there is more to it than this. It seems to me that the culture of many parts of Russia and also many of the former soviet states (Ukraine, Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia for example) have much in common with Europe when it comes to matters such as mythology, history and faith. Moreso, for example, than countries like China or Saudi Arabia.

Originally Posted by the guy who be short

But then, consider literacy rates elsewhere too. People in large parts of the foreign world simply don't have the chance to learn to read, yet alone read Tolkien.

Fair point, although I was more thinking in terms of those from different (ie non-“western”) cultures who are literate and who do have access, one way or another, to Tolkien’s works. Do the books hold as much appeal to them as they do for those from, or who are aqcuainted with, “western” cultures?

Originally Posted by Formendacil

Culture...

That is an interesting term.

Originally Posted by the guy who be short

I think we should probably consider nationality as well as ethnicity if we're going to be discussing the appeal Tolkien has.

I agree that “culture” is a difficult concept to define in this context. My Compact Oxford English Dictionary defines it as:

… the customs, institutions and achievements of a particular nation, people or group.

When considering the appeal of Tolkien to different cultures, it seems to me that we should focus on the belief system, history, mythology and traditions of those cultures. So, for example, the Rohirrim will seem rather familiar to those who are acquainted with pre-medieval European history. But would they seem as familiar to someone from China, or to an Australian Aborigine? Their history and cultural roots are not the same. Similarly, Goblins and Trolls are creatures from European mythology, albeit interpreted by Tolkien. Perhaps, through translation, the equivalent creatures from other mythologies may be co-opted into the story, but then will readers be seeing something different?

Of course, as a result of the migration of peoples that has taken place throughout history, cultures will transcend national boundaries and ethnicity, and will become blurred. Indeed, as davem points out, one of Tolkien’s stated intentions in writing LotR and his other works, was to provide a mythology for England which he felt to be lacking. But the mythological roots of the legendarium remain very much rooted in European tradition.

Originally Posted by the guy who be short

But considering that ethnicity doesn't really affect anything about a person … I don't see any importance there.

Yes. I would agree with you there. Ethnicity, in terms of racial stock, is certainly not the same thing as culture and, while ethnic origin may be an indicator of culture, it is not in itself a factor in determining whether a book based upon a certain cultural tradition will have any particular appeal to a person. Ethnicity, therefore, is perhaps rather a red herring.

Originally Posted by the guy who be short

I was born into a Hindu family, but living in Britain I also have a firm knowledge of Christianity. I can only presume my love of Tolkien would still exist, were that not the case. I am an atheist, and I know LotR appeals to a lot of atheists and agnostics as well as to Christians and Jews.

I agree. I would describe myself as an agnostic, and this has not affected my appreciation of LotR. Indeed, until recently, I was unaware of Tolkien’s faith and did not pick up on the religious undertones in his works at all. Having said that, I am familiar with Christian ideals and so perhaps there was a degree of connection there, even though I did not appreciate it at the time.

Then again, the kinds of concepts which LotR espouses – its morality, if you like – are not exclusive to Christianity. Do these shared concepts appeal to those of other faiths, even though the “trappings” within which they are presented are Christian in origin?

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

I know Japanese Tolkien addicts from other sites ...

I find that interesting, given that Japan has a very distinctive cultural tradition. What is it in Tolkien’s works, I wonder, that appeals to Japanese fans? Do they see it differently to “westerners”, ie as interpreted by reference to their own mythological and cultural traditions, or do they see it as a story based upon a different culture, but one which nonetheless contains messages with which they can identify? Difficult to generalise, I know. But it would be interesting to know how the book “translates” to different cultures (in the minds of readers, rather than on the page). Does the imagery of the films, while familiar to most European/North American fans, seem slightly alien to those from other cultural traditions?

Originally Posted by Lyta_Underhill

So the story can be cast in different ways, according to the tenets of the culture. I'd think any story must gain and lose meanings in translation, though, for the very reason of cultural and expressive differences...

I tend to agree with that although, while the style of translation on the page may have a bearing, I do think that it is perhaps more a matter of translation in the mind of the reader.

Originally Posted by davem

I've always been slightly surprised that non-English readers even get the story, as its always seemed so very English to me. A pleasant surprise, of course, but odd, to me, nonetheless....

Originally Posted by davem

I meant that to me the settings - particularly the parts set in the Shire, & the Hobbits themselves seem so English that I've always been surprised that non-English readers can relate to them so deeply.

It does not surprise me that non-English readers can relate to the visual backdrop to the story since, while the Shire might be very much grounded in the English countryside, the plains of Rohan, the peaks of the Misty Mountains and the depths of Moria will be recognisable to those from many other countries. So, it is not so much the landscape of Middle-earth which I suspect may be unfamiliar to some readers from different cultures, but rather the depiction of its peoples and their traditions. From Hobbits to Dwarves, from Elves to Ents and from Gondorians to Rohirrim, their depiction is unambiguously European.

Originally Posted by HerenIstarion

I ascribe to this very translation (it being the first as well) the popularity Tolkien has in Russia. It subsided of late, but there certainly was a phenomenon known as 'Tolkien craze', which burst out (and was mainly manned with young people - teenagers main part, but up to people in their 'late tweens') by the end of 80s, following publication of 'short version' translation of LoTR in 1982 and first full translation in 1988.

Thank you, HI, for your excellent description of the “Tolkien craze” in Russia. I would be interested to know whether it gained a greater following amongst the Slavic peoples of Russia than amongst those from the Muslim and other cultural traditions. Would you be able to shed any light on that? You indicate that the books have a following in Azerbaijan, which would suggests that it does have some following amongst Muslim peoples. But could the same be said with regard to Iran or Saudi Arabia, I wonder.

Further thoughts, anyone?