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Old 08-22-2003, 09:00 AM   #13
Måns
Haunting Spirit
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Stockholm
Posts: 63
Måns has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

I would have to mildly disagree with the lower part of your post, the apart about creation. I do not believe that anything that has not got life can breed since it is indeed one of the conditions to be said to be alive. The reason that they could have no life if creatd by Morgoth is quite clear since he did not have the power to create a new specie, nor did Manwë or any Valar as is amde clear in the Silmarillion: OF Aulë and the Dwarves. Life is the special gift, given by Illuvatar to all his children, Ainur, Elves, Men and later Dwarves. Orcs were not created by Morgoth, there ared two theories put forth by Tolkien, the first is the one written in the Silmarillion, that htey were corrupted elves. This does obviosuly not it in with the versions of elvish "Life" in HoME that say taht they do not increase in numbers. Also, there is the thought that they were bred from maiar:

Quote:
It seems clear (see 'Finrod and Andreth') that though Melkor could utterly corrupt and ruin individuals, it is not possible to contemplate his absolute perversion of a whole people, or group of peoples, and his making that state heritable. In that case Elves, as a source, are very unlikely. And are Orcs 'immortal', in the Elvish sense?
What of talking beasts and birds with reasoning and speech?
In any case is it likely or possible that even the least of the Maiar would become Orcs? Yes: both outside Arda and in it, before the fall of Utumno. Melkor had corrupted many spirits - some great, as Sauron, or less so, as Balrogs. The least could have been primitive (and much more powerful and perilous) Orcs; but by practising when embodied procreation they would (cf. Melian) become more and more earthbound, unable to return to spirit-state (even demon-form), until released by death (killing), and they would dwindle in force. But again - would Eru provide fear for such creatures? For the Eagles etc. perhaps. But not for Orcs.
In summary: I think it must be assumed that 'talking' is not necessarily the sign of the possession of a 'rational soul' or fea. The Orcs were beasts of humanized shape (to mock Men and Elves) deliberately perverted and converted into a more close resemblance to Men. Their 'talking' was really reeling off 'records' set in them by Melkor. Even their rebellious critical words - he knew about them. Melkor taught them speech and as they bred they inherited this; and they had just as much independence as have, say, dogs or horses of their human masters. This talking was largely echoic (cf. parrots). The same sort of thing may be said of Huan and the Eagles: they were taught language by the Valar, and raised to a higher level - but they still had no fear.
But Finrod probably went too far in his assertion that Melkor could not wholly corrupt any work of Eru. It remains therefore terribly possible there was an Elvish strain in the Orcs. These may then even have been mated with beasts (sterile!) - and later Men. Their life-span would be diminished. And dying they would go to Mandos and be held in prison till the End.
The wills of Orcs and Balrogs etc. are part of Melkor's power 'dispersed'. Their spirit is one of hate. But hate is non-cooperative (except under direct fear). Hence the rebellions, mutinies, etc. when Morgoth seems far off. Orcs are beasts and Balrogs corrupted Maiar. Also Morgoth not Sauron is the source of Orc-wills. Sauron is just another (if greater) agent. Orcs can rebel against him without losing their own irremediable allegiance to evil (Morgoth).
My theory would not be going as far as stating dinosaurs but in theory, yes I agree. There were dark spirits roaming the lands of middle earth before time begun, they could be descendants of those or possibly perverted maiar, descendants fo such.

Måns
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