[davem]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

They are no more out of place than the fox in the Shire.

I think they are far more out if place - not out of place in TH as a story set in its own little world - but certainly out of place if TH is placed in the Legendarium.

What interests me in this debate is that when I'm challenged on anything I say & can offer proof & evidence for it that's never acknowledged - like your point on the 'exact' match between the geography of TH & LotR - are you going to acknowledge that what I said about the geography of TH & LotR being only similar was correct?

Or when I said that the name 'William' for a Troll was wrong, as was the way they spoke - people argue 'Well, we don't know that Trolls in the rest of the Legendarium didn't speak that way or have names like William.' When I then go on & quote from a letter of Tolkien's in which he states that he regretted using the name William or having them say such things as 'Poor little blighter' all those who argued against me suddenly change the subject & just carry on blithely accusing me of not offering any evidence for what I'm saying.

Again, this accusation that I've only cited 'mood & tone' has been repeated ad infinitum, & I've had to respond each time that I've also given examples of the difference between the Elves, Dwarves, Trolls & Hobbits, & the presence of talking purses & animals walking on their hind legs carrying plates, etc. The wrong accusations get repeated, so I'm forced to repeat myself.

Originally Posted by MR U

Beorn's animals: Nix on Beorn's animals, but okay on talking eagles, werewolves, Telvido, Shadowfax, Queen Beruthiel's Cats, Huan, Ents, huorns, and for that matter, talking swords in the Sil writings? I don't see the problem.

Beorn's animals aren't Maiar - they're creatures of fairy story - which is what TH was written as. I don't recall Shadowfax or Beruthiel's cat's walking on their hind legs & carrying plates - or anything remotely similar. Ents & Huorns are a seperate species. Turin's talking sword is an interesting question, but not relevant as far as I can see - its never made clear whether that 'voice' was only heard in Turin's mind for one thing. Its also a not uncommon idea in mythology. But none of this answers the central question - TH was not written to be part of the Legendarium (as LotR was) so should it be included?

Tra-la-la-lallying Elves: You don't dig the tra-la-lally. Others do, or at least don't have a problem with it. Your opinion is far from conclusive evidence on this matter.

I have no problem with them in TH - I like them in TH - but they don't belong in the Legendarium.

Does this summarize the main "problems" you see TH causing? While you're at it, why don't you tell me which of the "Sil writings" make the cut for the Legendarium and which ones do not.

What belongs in the Sil are those writings which conform to it, in mood, tone & consistency.