The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum - View Single Post - The battle of Helm's Deep: All the Elves were killed?

alatar · 08-30-2005, 09:09 AM

Been watching the battle of Helm's Deep the last few nights - can't seem to get another DVD into the machine

. Found this thread, and hopefully this post is germane.

Anyway, started thinking about the elves that were there at Helm's Deep. Of course I love the moment when Aragorn hugs Haldir; though I know that there aren't supposed to be elves at the battle, it's still a good scene. When the battle is about to ensue, we see elves on the wall and also elves on the back hillside. Each elf is armed with a bow and sword. Assume that each elf is one quarter as lethal as Prince Legolas, meaning that for every four orcs that Legolas kills, the Haldirian elf kills one.

So how many elves came with Haldir?

We hear that there are approximately 10,000 Uruks involved in the attack. I think that there are 300 human soldiers at Helm's deep, and so their involvement is negligible. Anyway, so if we assume that each Haldirian elf caps off eight arrows before (stupidly) switching to his sword, and with the kill rate above, that would mean two kills per elf. If there were 100 elves, then 200 dead Uruks. 500 elves = 1000 dead Uruks.

...and so on.

If one plays with the numbers a bit, assuming that the elves have a higher kill rate, that there are more or less elves, etc, there still seems to be something amiss. Even with the lower values that I first present, there just doesn't seem to be enough dead Uruks around. Do the math.

Did PJ just botch that detail, or did he want to make the assault still seem overwhelming for the defenders despite the presence/assistance of the elves? My guess is the second.

It just seems to me that if I were Haldir or Aragorn (whomever was in command of the elves) I would have loosed every last arrow and pointy stick that I had into the Uruks. With 100 elves of the caliber of Legolas, there could be upwards of 4000 dead Uruks. Causalties like that would make the enemy at least rethink the assault, or at least enable them to stack their dead into seige towers

.

And while I'm back on the "PJ goofed" wagon, just think that the scene where an elf is shot then falls from the wall into the besiegers is silly. The only way for this to occur is for the elf to be standing on the top of the wall leaning over the orcs - and maybe even balancing on one leg.

08-30-2005, 09:09 AM	#44
alatar Doubting Dwimmerlaik Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Heaven's basement Posts: 2,466	Been watching the battle of Helm's Deep the last few nights - can't seem to get another DVD into the machine . Found this thread, and hopefully this post is germane. Anyway, started thinking about the elves that were there at Helm's Deep. Of course I love the moment when Aragorn hugs Haldir; though I know that there aren't supposed to be elves at the battle, it's still a good scene. When the battle is about to ensue, we see elves on the wall and also elves on the back hillside. Each elf is armed with a bow and sword. Assume that each elf is one quarter as lethal as Prince Legolas, meaning that for every four orcs that Legolas kills, the Haldirian elf kills one. So how many elves came with Haldir? We hear that there are approximately 10,000 Uruks involved in the attack. I think that there are 300 human soldiers at Helm's deep, and so their involvement is negligible. Anyway, so if we assume that each Haldirian elf caps off eight arrows before (stupidly) switching to his sword, and with the kill rate above, that would mean two kills per elf. If there were 100 elves, then 200 dead Uruks. 500 elves = 1000 dead Uruks. ...and so on. If one plays with the numbers a bit, assuming that the elves have a higher kill rate, that there are more or less elves, etc, there still seems to be something amiss. Even with the lower values that I first present, there just doesn't seem to be enough dead Uruks around. Do the math. Did PJ just botch that detail, or did he want to make the assault still seem overwhelming for the defenders despite the presence/assistance of the elves? My guess is the second. It just seems to me that if I were Haldir or Aragorn (whomever was in command of the elves) I would have loosed every last arrow and pointy stick that I had into the Uruks. With 100 elves of the caliber of Legolas, there could be upwards of 4000 dead Uruks. Causalties like that would make the enemy at least rethink the assault, or at least enable them to stack their dead into seige towers . And while I'm back on the "PJ goofed" wagon, just think that the scene where an elf is shot then falls from the wall into the besiegers is silly. The only way for this to occur is for the elf to be standing on the top of the wall leaning over the orcs - and maybe even balancing on one leg. __________________ There is naught that you can do, other than to resist, with hope or without it.