[Gorthaur the Cruel]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

Another Galadriel/Luthien style debate, I see...

Personally, by calling Galadriel Melian's apprentice, I think you are endangering your very premise- since the strength and skills of Galadriel in later years may be attributed to the teaching she received from Melian.

Not exactly a Galadriel/Luthien debate. More of wisdom than power, & apprentices can surpass their masters.

However, the main point I'll debate now will be your last one- that Thingol was less than Celeborn. Granted, Celeborn was a great Elf, greater than most fans tend to give him credit, but he is no Elu Thingol, one of the greatest kings of all Elvenkind. Proud, yes. At times, overconfident. Sometimes harsh. But definitely a great king. And as far as the personality flaws go, we can see an echo of them in his great-nephew's treatment of Gimli upon learning of the Balrog's re-awakening.

Ah but you see, great he is yet it was the Queen of Doriath that lent him that power. Proud, harsh, arrogant, & rash... doesn't seem to constitute greatness (at least to me). And letting Melian's counsel pass from one ear to the other... well you get the pattern.

Personally, I would call Galadriel/Celeborn a deliberate latter-day version of Melian/Thingol, in much the same way that Aragorn/Arwen were a deliberate latter-day version of Luthien/Beren. To say that the copy is greater than the original seems... flawed.

They were indeed latter day versions but they were different. They are greater in terms of choices & character.

Unlike the Luthien, in her debate with Galadriel, Melian actually IS a Maia. And she matches Galadriel's feat of holding out against the Dark Lord- except that the Dark Lord she holds out against is Melkor, and she does it singlehandedly between his return to Middle-earth and the Coming of the Noldor, whereas Galadriel never leads the sole kingdom standing against Sauron. Ever.

Agreed. I wasn't contesting Melian's native strength. Although, Morgoth at the time was already beginning to dwindle in might. He could not even defend himself against Ungoliant & had to rely on his Balrogs & yet Melian was able to stay the fell spider-maia. But it was also not that long before the coming of Noldor, especially of Feanor, so Doriath ruled with other mighty princes. Not by brute force did their kingdom fell but courtesy of Thingol. Sauron also in the 3rd age was more powerful than Morgoth & Galadriel was able to divine his mind clearly & although Lothlorien had no girdle, it needed Sauron's physical presence to be overthrown because the power that dwelt there was too great for any to overcome. No matter how many armies attack Lothlorien, it will never be invaded because of Galadriel. Sauron was able to attack many kingdoms at the same time. If Melian senses something, she rarely does something about it (or needed Thingol's consent) whereas Galadriel challenges fate.