The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum - View Single Post - Did the Valar abandon Middle Earth

***Mithadan*** · 09-22-2000, 12:14 PM

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 90</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/sting.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Did the Valar abandon Middle Earth - Third Age?

Good arguments also. I don't have a copy of Return of the King handy, but I seem to recall The Tale of Years containing an entry for the wizards or at least Gandalf arriving during the Third Age. Could be wrong, but if so, wouldn't JRRT's late writings on wizards conflict with his often stated position that if something is published in LoTR it will not be changed?

I don't necessarily agree that the Valar, after the change in the world and the removal of Valinor, surrendered rights to governance of Middle Earth. The Akallabeth states "Then Manwe upon the Mountain called upon Iluvatar, and FOR THAT TIME the Valar laid down their government of Arda." (emphasis added). The Valar had to surrender their authority temporarily because to "change the fashion of the world" was beyond their power. But it is not said that they "thereafter" surrendered their authority, only "for that time". Their role was the governance of Arda. They easily sent the Wizards and Glorfindel back (assuming this was Third Age and not Second Age as you so cogently argued), and could themselves have returned. On the other hand, if the wizards arrived before the change in the world, their is no evidence that the Straight Road was two way, just as there is no evidence that it was not. Another "canon" definition issue - what was published vs. what was written latest.

Because you advocate Morgoth's Ring's round earth conception, I assume that you hold that some or all of the history which was published in the Silmarillion is "mannish" as opposed to elvish in origin. What to you attribute to man? Also, can't it be assumed that the Numenoreans knew the world was round? If so, why were Akallabeth and Silmarillion, et al. written in a flat earth context? [devil's advocate, I'd like to make the Round Earth conception fit with the Silm.]

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09-22-2000, 12:14 PM	#11
*Mithadan* Spirit of Mist Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Tol Eressea Posts: 3,396	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit Posts: 90</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> <img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/sting.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Did the Valar abandon Middle Earth - Third Age? Good arguments also. I don't have a copy of Return of the King handy, but I seem to recall The Tale of Years containing an entry for the wizards or at least Gandalf arriving during the Third Age. Could be wrong, but if so, wouldn't JRRT's late writings on wizards conflict with his often stated position that if something is published in LoTR it will not be changed? I don't necessarily agree that the Valar, after the change in the world and the removal of Valinor, surrendered rights to governance of Middle Earth. The Akallabeth states "Then Manwe upon the Mountain called upon Iluvatar, and FOR THAT TIME the Valar laid down their government of Arda." (emphasis added). The Valar had to surrender their authority temporarily because to "change the fashion of the world" was beyond their power. But it is not said that they "thereafter" surrendered their authority, only "for that time". Their role was the governance of Arda. They easily sent the Wizards and Glorfindel back (assuming this was Third Age and not Second Age as you so cogently argued), and could themselves have returned. On the other hand, if the wizards arrived before the change in the world, their is no evidence that the Straight Road was two way, just as there is no evidence that it was not. Another "canon" definition issue - what was published vs. what was written latest. Because you advocate Morgoth's Ring's round earth conception, I assume that you hold that some or all of the history which was published in the Silmarillion is "mannish" as opposed to elvish in origin. What to you attribute to man? Also, can't it be assumed that the Numenoreans knew the world was round? If so, why were Akallabeth and Silmarillion, et al. written in a flat earth context? [devil's advocate, I'd like to make the Round Earth conception fit with the Silm.] </p> __________________ Beleriand, Beleriand, the borders of the Elven-land.