The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum - View Single Post

***Sharkû*** · 09-16-2003, 07:43 AM

First of all, Iarhen, you seem to be dreadfully unclear about the nature of the History of Middle-earth series. Not ONE quote I gave above is by Christopher Tolkien, they are exclusively from the pen of JRRT’s later unpublished writings, usually considered the most important source for Legendarium discussions which go beyond the published knowledge.

You were talking about Morgoth’s impression, or even imprint, on Sauron. Certainly this could not have been in the same way as M.’s imprint on Arda, sc. the Marring thereof, as you seem to imply in II. We have no indication whatsoever of M. marring other Ainur, apart from the ‘corrupting to his service’, which does not imply any tinkering with their physical or psychic form. Where it could be imagined, maybe likely, such as with Balrogs, it is still a different case with Sauron, where your point is pure hypothesis.
As for M. simply ‘impressing’ Sauron, that is, inspiring awe in him, I think I gave the Professor’s stance quite clearly: Sauron was ONCE faithful to M., but is no more with the death of him. Now he follows his own schemes of reformation and later dominion.

As for the ‘Host of the Valar’, I already explained why this would be unlikely in any other situation than the Dagor Dagorath (which was evidently not Sauron’s goal, and could supposedly not be brought about without the presumed return of M. before).

As for the corruption of Men, we can observe that Sauron did not ‘corrupt’ on a large scale, certainly it was far beyond his power to tinker with a whole race. He controls and reigns. Those people who served S. in the Ring War could be let free right away. They are anything but beyond redemption. Slavery is not likely to be the cause of Ragnarök.

Annihilation of life as we know it would, I repeat, not be S.’s goal. Where is the evidence, even remote, for that?

Furthermore, we know S. was no longer loyal to M. Please reread my post if you are unclear about that. I repeat my question as to WHY he should be faithful to him in first place. S. is no dumb puppet programmed to execute M.’s will. Not even the orcs are, even their allegiance ceased along with M. (cf. Myths Transformed).

“If he was no longer, then he probably would not; but he was devoted to him once. Who knows?” Tolkien did.

09-16-2003, 07:43 AM	#9
*Sharkû* Hungry Ghoul Join Date: Jun 2000 Posts: 1,719	First of all, Iarhen, you seem to be dreadfully unclear about the nature of the History of Middle-earth series. Not ONE quote I gave above is by Christopher Tolkien, they are exclusively from the pen of JRRT’s later unpublished writings, usually considered the most important source for Legendarium discussions which go beyond the published knowledge. You were talking about Morgoth’s impression, or even imprint, on Sauron. Certainly this could not have been in the same way as M.’s imprint on Arda, sc. the Marring thereof, as you seem to imply in II. We have no indication whatsoever of M. marring other Ainur, apart from the ‘corrupting to his service’, which does not imply any tinkering with their physical or psychic form. Where it could be imagined, maybe likely, such as with Balrogs, it is still a different case with Sauron, where your point is pure hypothesis. As for M. simply ‘impressing’ Sauron, that is, inspiring awe in him, I think I gave the Professor’s stance quite clearly: Sauron was ONCE faithful to M., but is no more with the death of him. Now he follows his own schemes of reformation and later dominion. As for the ‘Host of the Valar’, I already explained why this would be unlikely in any other situation than the Dagor Dagorath (which was evidently not Sauron’s goal, and could supposedly not be brought about without the presumed return of M. before). As for the corruption of Men, we can observe that Sauron did not ‘corrupt’ on a large scale, certainly it was far beyond his power to tinker with a whole race. He controls and reigns. Those people who served S. in the Ring War could be let free right away. They are anything but beyond redemption. Slavery is not likely to be the cause of Ragnarök. Annihilation of life as we know it would, I repeat, not be S.’s goal. Where is the evidence, even remote, for that? Furthermore, we know S. was no longer loyal to M. Please reread my post if you are unclear about that. I repeat my question as to WHY he should be faithful to him in first place. S. is no dumb puppet programmed to execute M.’s will. Not even the orcs are, even their allegiance ceased along with M. (cf. Myths Transformed). “If he was no longer, then he probably would not; but he was devoted to him once. Who knows?” Tolkien did.