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Originally Posted by Boromir88
Eventhough we know in the books that Sauron is fully aware of what Saruman is up to and only using him to suit his own purposes, in Saruman's own mind he can undermine and defeat Sauron if he gets a hold of the Ring. This shouldn't be too complicated to establish in the movies. Instead of saying "We must join with Sauron," he could say "Join me Gandalf, and together we can defeat Sauron and restore Order back to Middle-earth, and we can rule them like we should." (Maybe something less corny but that's basically what Saruman's own intentions were, is to rule Middle-earth himself.
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Was that really his view? Or is this really a pipe dream he has? For what he actually says is:
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'And listen, Gandalf, my old friend and helper! " he said, coming near and speaking now in a softer voice. "I said we, for we it may be, if you will join with me. A new Power is rising. Against it the old allies and policies will not avail us at all. There is no hope left in Elves or dying Númenor. This then is one choice before you. before us. We may join with that Power. It would be wise, Gandalf. There is hope that way. Its victory is at hand; and there will be rich reward for those that aided it. As the Power grows, its proved friends will also grow; and the Wise, such as you and I, may with patience come at last to direct its courses, to control it. We can bide our time, we can keep our thoughts in our hearts, deploring maybe evils done by the way, but approving the high and ultimate purpose: Knowledge, Rule, Order; all the things that we have so far striven in vain to accomplish, hindered rather than helped by our weak or idle friends. There need not be, there would not be, any real change in our designs, only in our means.
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bide our time, control it? you really think saruman thinks he could control Sauron once he had the Ring back?
or could it be a way of forcing Gandalf to follow him? tell him to join with sauron and they could then bend him to their will, when he might not really think this himself? or is Saruam nvain enugh to actually believe this?
so I'm not sure HOW far away the film actually is - he still gives gandalf 'one choice' - to 'join' with sauron...... (ok perhaps 'must' is too strong.....)