[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

I've always liked to compare the two, because they are faced with similar situations. What's interesting is we hear of Denethor's greater days and being a much better man in the past, and we see his drastic spiral downwards in ROTK. In Theoden's case we vaguely see and hear his low point (being in the hands of Saruman and listening to Grima) and then his rise to triumph. So, the way they are portrayed in the books, and how they once were are polar opposites.

The only thing I can see as to why Theoden was able to get out of his hole, and Denethor wasn't was because Theoden put his hope and trust into Gandalf. Where Denethor did not, of course, as we know, he has disliked Gandalf since the earlier days.

Do you think that Tolkien may have contrasted both Men to illustrate just how far those of Numenorean blood had fallen? Bearing in mind what Faramir says about Men:

For so we reckon Men in our lore, calling them the High, or Men of the West, which were Numenoreans; and the Middle Peoples, Men of the Twilight, such as are the Rohirrim and their kin that dwell still far in the North; and the Wild, the Men of Darkness.
'Yet now, if the Rohirrim are grown in some ways more like to us, enhanced in arts and gentleness, we too have become more like to them, and can scarce claim any longer the title High. We are become Middle Men, of the Twilight, but with memory of other things.

Clearly the Gondorians are very proud of their Numenorean heritage and have had a tendency to set themselves socially apart from other men such as the Rohirrim. Yet when you see how Denethor behaves in comparison to how Theoden behaves, then you get a clear picture that the descendants of Numenor are perhaps overly proud.

It's telling that Denethor's own son recognises that the two races of men are not so different; it's also very telling that Faramir does not choose a bride from Gondor but one from Rohan. So there is yet another thing that one of the characters has to face - Faramir facing up to the fact that despite what his learning has told him, in reality Men are not all that different from one another, that it is deeds which count, not just bloodlines.

Originally Posted by lmp

Huh? What do you mean? How can he not cope? It seems to me that he copes most successfully, and finally succumbs only because of the sheer immensity of the burden.

I mean that after the job is done he cannot cope; Sam and Bilbo cope once they are free of the Ring, but Frodo is terribly wounded. Of course, he does go through a lot more, but then we also have to consider that Bilbo used it a lot more and carried it for longer. Or, do you think that even after the Ring was gone, Frodo coped well?

Originally Posted by Farael

I believe that it's because of the Ring that Frodo finds it hard to cope with the experience of being a Ringbearer. After all, the ring helps Bilbo and Sam yet it only opposes Frodo.

Or is it that the Ring works on the personality/characteristics of each bearer? Bilbo gains the Ring innocently and uses it relatively innocently to hide from the Sackville-Bagginsesand other intrusive Hobbits. Both Bilbo and Sam seem quite robust Hobbits psychologically. Is Frodo different? It's something that might be worth looking at. Isildur is proud of his heritage and the Ring seems to work on this side of his personality, something which is echoed in Boromir many years later. And then Gollum, who kills to get the Ring, uses it to sneak on his kin and eventually to retreat even further into solitude. So, what is it about Frodo that the Ring works on? His sense of duty? Was this strong before he was left the Ring?

In terms of facing up to things, it seems to me that one of the Ring's effects was to work on their characters, possibly to grab hold of those aspects that they did not want to face up to, or even onto their worst fears.