[Elora]

The Squatter of Amon Rûdh raised a wonderfully relevant point to consider when discussing the portrayal of women or anything else within Lord of the Rings.

It is from the point of view of hobbits - male hobbits.

I contend also that the concept of the female characters being better at deception within the tale is more a feature of the perspective of the story teller (hobbits) than Tolkien's personal perceptions of women.

For Hobbits on their first venture into the wider world and the attendant large scale events of politics and power, many things would appear otherwise than say we of the "Big Folk" see it. Tolkien was a gifted author who had a distinct talent for encapsulating a world view from the perspective of his main characters. It's a big stretch to say his own personal views mirrored those of his characters.

It is for this reason, that I find the question of gender when applied to Lord of the Rings a tricksome one. For in order to make a substantive case you must be able to say the perspective of the story teller is the same as that of the writer.

This is a difficult basis upon which to form your argument, no matter what you may wish to put forward as your position.

For example, the style of perspective of writing varies markedly between Silmarillion and Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit... which of the three actually reflects Tolkien's personal perspective?

I suspect each of them did, but to what degree and how exactly few could ever clearly discern, if any could at all.

Discussions about Tolkien's view [points on gender or race or politics as judged from his fictional works is a little too much based on inference and interpretation to produce a decisive and authoritative conclusion being ever reached. To commence, we must first put some opinion on such things in his mouth, using passages from his fictional works. That ground is too thin to stand on (such is my belief at any rate).

Whilst this is no criticism of the debate here, which I notice is a refreshingly intelligent discussion of gender issues in Tolkien, I think it necessary to point out that in holding this debate we are ascribing a view point on gender to the author with little factual basis to justify that. For example, have we a statement from Tolkien on his actual thoughts on gender, the roles of men and women and how Lord of Rings reflects or differs from that personal view?

We do not, such that I have seen mentioned here. Instead we are deriving his viewpoint from his novel, a risky venture in my opinion.

[ May 30, 2003: Message edited by: Elora ]