[Child of the 7th Age]

Such activity and tumult! Just a few fast replies to some questions and observations that were mentioned earlier on this thread.

Mithalwen - My own view of Lúthien is quite different than yours. Since this goes beyond the pale of this thread, I'd encourage you to put a new thread up where this could be discussed. I think you would get a lot of takers. And I do agree with you about Idril. She is a magnificent example of a strong character who is a woman. In fact, her very presence underscores the question I raised: if Tolkien could create strong and compelling characters in the rest of the Legendarium, ones who helped pushed the action forward, why couldn't he do that to the same degree in Lord of the Rings? If a Haleth can exist in the First Age, why can we not have a comparable woman in the Third Age? Yes, you can not give Gondor a "female" queen , but there are plenty of names in the appendix and pedigrees, some even mentioned in the story itself, that would just need some fleshing out. This also points to the fascinating question that's been discussed at length before: why did Tolkien "kill off" so many female characters before the book began? ("Tolkien the Matricide" thread started by Bird)

Lalwende provided a list of names for women who appeared in the book. Yet, we see most of these in a sentence or two, a page at most. It is difficult to get to know a character and feel a strong attachment to them within such a short space. There could even have been more done with existing characters in the story. Bethberry has pointed out on many occasions that Goldberry's name was never mentioned at the end when Gandalf decided to go back and visit Bombadil.

Davem -

As usual, you've made a thoughtful and insightful commentary. Yet I can't help feeling that your argument hinges on one assumption (which I've put in italics) that I can not agree with.

The Legendarium is the Legendarium. Only Tolkien could have produced these tales & he could only have written the tales as he did write them. What would you sacrifice of the Legendarium in order to get more women in LotR? You can't have everything. Complaining that's its not 'perfect' in your opinion is fine, but if it was somehow made more acceptable to you I suspect it would be a damn sight less acceptable to others. Until we can say we fully understand every aspect of the story, every nuance of meaning, have assimilated every meaning & reference of the story (& the very fact that we keep going back to it shows we have not) I think we should take what we've been given.

Respectfully, I disagree. If we take your last sentence at face value, we would have no criticism of LotR whatsoever---and I do not mean criticism in a negative sense, but thoughtful discussion that points out the strengths and weaknesses of what the author is attempting. It would eliminate any debate over such topics as whether Tom Bombadil really fits in the story, whether the varying language and style that Tolkien uses for particular characters and scenes enhances or detracts from the pleasure that the reader takes, or whether the author's poetry is as compelling to the reader as his prose. The question of female characters is no different than this.

What most fascinates me about this thread is the emotion it elicits. We can debate canon, language, or whether the earliest chapters are successfully integrated into the rest of the book and, only rarely, will posters show strong personal feeling. Yes, they will have well defended opinions, but it is not at the "gut level" we are talking about here. But the minute the question of gender is raised, the discussion takes a different turn. I believe this is part of what Lush was referring to in her initial post. The only other question that I can think of that has a similar impact is how and if race plays a role in the delineation of characters and peoples in LotR. (And I am not talking about a bone headed and over simplistic question that asks whether Tolkien was a racist!)

When talking about gender or race, we are dealing with something that is very personal, something that people have strong feelings about whether in reference to Tolkien, literature in general, or the vagaries of real life. Those experiences shape our answers and our own emotional response, and they create the strong feelings that I believe underlie this discussion. I will readily admit that, in emotional terms, I would have liked to see stronger female characters, and I believe there are mythic/legendary paradigms that Tolkien could have drawn upon to do this.

We are also bound by our own culture and its maxims. Who hasn't heard about "political correctness"? Whether we accept or reject it, we can not help but be influenced by its arguments one way or another. I think this element also transforms the discussion of Tolkien's female characters into something emotional. We are creatures of our own times (just as Tolkien was a creature of his) and none of us can escape that influence.

To put it simply, I am not interested in feminist or marxist interpretations of Lord of the Rings. What I am interested in is this. I want to look at the whole body of the author's writing, canonical or not, and see to what extent the various devices, emphases, and themes are similar throughout the entire work and to what extent they are different. We have had many discussions comparing and contrasting Silm with LotR. It was in this context that I raised my question: why did the author create strong female characters in the Legendarium (written both earlier and later than LotR) and yet LotR has a relative lack of such strong characters, at least ones that get any kind of in depth treatment. I am not asking for a female Walker; I am not asking explicitly for any one character, since there are a variety of ways to accomplish this goal.

I suggested one reason for the difference might be the influence of The Hobbit. But surely it can't be as simple as this, since Tolkien worked for many years on LotR, to the point that he complained he had trouble remembering some of the details of The Hobbit. It would be possible to argue that my basic assumpton is "false": that the female characters in the Legendarium are no different in this respect than those in LotR, but I don't believe anyone has said that yet. It would be possible to say that it isn't important whether the book has strong female characters --some have suggested this. But, even if the latter is true, my question still stands. In my mind those female characters born in an earlier age--Haleth, Idril, Luthien, Galadriel, Varda--are greater in number and stronger in nature than those whom Tolkien conceived for the first time in the Rings tale. Why is this?