[davem]

Originally Posted by Lush

We are? Like, totally?

as a cullture, yes. and I'm not referring to 'environmentalism'.

And who in this thread is talking about an ignorant past? Not me.

I know - I was making a general point not a specific one.

It's got its merits and its drawbacks.

more of the latter than the former.

I think the experience is not necessarily detached from analysis.

No, but they're not the same thing, & the experience is always true, while the analysis is not always so. Our ancestors experienced the sun on the eastern horizon in the morning, overhead at noon & on the western horizon at evening. Their analysis was that it was the sun that was moving.

(And I'm not saying that you said it was the sun moving - I feel I now have to make such clarifications....)

LOL! All feminists are that simple then, are they?

Risking becoming repetitive I can only say that I never said that all feminists are that simple. I only said it was 'likely', not that it was inevitable. Admittedly, feminist (& marxist) analyses of fairytales is not something I go in for studying (neither is Jungian any longer, if it comes to that). I did hear Germaine Greer make exactly that analysis of Cundrie in Parsifal though, & I don't think its so uncommon among feminists.

Embattled? Sir davem flatters himself. I think Lalaith summed it up best above.

Are you referring to:

But as soon as gender is raised - thump! The discussion slumps to arguments along the lines of "but there couldn't be any females in the Fellowship because the girls at my high school hate getting their clothes dirty." It's the one thing that brings people crashing back into the mundane and limited "real world" (or rather their own particular world).

If so, i accept that that can happen. The point, though, is that Tolkien created Middle-earth & the rules by which it operates. No, there are not many significant female figures in TH or Lotr. But that's what he wrote. You might as well object that there are no aircraft in the story, & say, well, its a fantasy world, so why shouldn't there be flying machines in it. There just aren't. Live with it, or read something else. No-one's forcing you to read it. If challenged, I think Tolkien might have responded along the lines of 'I'm not here to live up to your expecations. There are plenty of other books to read which would maybe appeal to your taste more'.

This is what I'm still struggling with. Its like me finding fault with the Mona Lisa because Leonardo painted a woman. By God, it wouldn't have hurt him to put a bloke in there as well!'.

I can only say that I still haven't got your real point. Of course you can ask why there aren't many more female characters in LotR, but all anyone can really say to that is, you know, you're right , There aren't. We can't change the story. We can't even psychoanalyse the author. A feminist critique will suggest one reason, a marxist critique another. And I'm sure there are any number of other theories around which will come up with something else, but none of them will change the story & add more women in there. I accept that it may be annoying but that's just the way things are.