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**The Saucepan Man** · 02-13-2006, 01:09 PM

.. but this may simply stand as a passing comment.

It seems to me that the point Lush was making was that, whenever the issue of gender in relation to Tolkien's writings is raised, many feel a natural impulse to defend Tolkien (for example by reference to the time he lived in or the nature of women in the "real world") rather than considering the issues raised further. Some of the responses on this thread would appear to bear her out.

In my view, there is certainly an interesting discussion to be had concerning the absence of (many) strong female characters in LotR. Why (from the point of the story, as opposed to "real life" issues - historical and contemporary) is this so? What is its impact on the story? What is the impact on the story of the manner in which those female characters who are present are portrayed?

Child and Lalwendë have identified a number of questions concerning those female characters who are present which would make for more fruitful debate than simply a frothy to-ing and fro-ing on the fact of their absence in siginicant numbers.

Here are some more that occured to me:

What is the impact on the tale of Tolkien's conscious decision to remove most of the tale of Arwen and Aragorn to the Appendices? How might it have affected the story had this detail been included in the body of the tale itself?

Is it fair to say that most of the main female characters who are present in the tale (and the Legendarium) are defined, to a large extent, by their beauty (and/or fecundity)? If not, why (again, in terms of its impact on the story) are most of the main female characters "beautiful" in traditional terms? The only two I can think of who are portrayed as postively "un-beautiful" are Shelob (and her Mirkwood spawn, I suppose) and Thuringwethil (and I am not sure about the latter). And the only "plain" female character I can think of is Ioreth. Perhaps there are more. Yet many of the male characters are not defined by reference to their physical appearance (Aragorn, for example, "looks foul but feels fair"). What are the reasons for this (again, in terms of how it impacts upon the story).

Now I shall probably sit back and watch the discussion continue.

Oh, and behave ...

02-13-2006, 01:09 PM	#79
The Saucepan Man Corpus Cacophonous Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: A green and pleasant land Posts: 8,390	I hesitate to enter ... .. but this may simply stand as a passing comment. It seems to me that the point Lush was making was that, whenever the issue of gender in relation to Tolkien's writings is raised, many feel a natural impulse to defend Tolkien (for example by reference to the time he lived in or the nature of women in the "real world") rather than considering the issues raised further. Some of the responses on this thread would appear to bear her out. In my view, there is certainly an interesting discussion to be had concerning the absence of (many) strong female characters in LotR. Why (from the point of the story, as opposed to "real life" issues - historical and contemporary) is this so? What is its impact on the story? What is the impact on the story of the manner in which those female characters who are present are portrayed? Child and Lalwendë have identified a number of questions concerning those female characters who are present which would make for more fruitful debate than simply a frothy to-ing and fro-ing on the fact of their absence in siginicant numbers. Here are some more that occured to me: What is the impact on the tale of Tolkien's conscious decision to remove most of the tale of Arwen and Aragorn to the Appendices? How might it have affected the story had this detail been included in the body of the tale itself? Is it fair to say that most of the main female characters who are present in the tale (and the Legendarium) are defined, to a large extent, by their beauty (and/or fecundity)? If not, why (again, in terms of its impact on the story) are most of the main female characters "beautiful" in traditional terms? The only two I can think of who are portrayed as postively "un-beautiful" are Shelob (and her Mirkwood spawn, I suppose) and Thuringwethil (and I am not sure about the latter). And the only "plain" female character I can think of is Ioreth. Perhaps there are more. Yet many of the male characters are not defined by reference to their physical appearance (Aragorn, for example, "looks foul but feels fair"). What are the reasons for this (again, in terms of how it impacts upon the story). Now I shall probably sit back and watch the discussion continue. Oh, and behave ... __________________ Do you mind? I'm busy doing the fishstick. It's a very delicate state of mind!