[Formendacil]

Okay, let’s being this… starting from the top:

Originally Posted by Lhunardawen

++CELEBORN

He's just a silver-haired shadow of his gorgeous golden-haired wife. (Telperion and Laurelin, anyone?)

Come on! You know you love him...not!

Lhuna makes a direct reference to Celeborn’s state in life: his marriage to Galadried (and then includes details of their appearance).

This vote is COUNTED.

Originally Posted by Anguirel

Rather than breathing new life into the Amandil campaign, (because I appreciated that defence of him earlier) I wish to examine a new candidate: Elendil himself.

Look at his overwhelming arrogance!

Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn' Ambar-metta

"Out of the Great Sea to Middle-earth I am come. In this place will I abide, and my heirs, unto the ending of the world."

Says who? He clearly doesn't know about Elessar XIII getting turned into a frog by Alatar in the Fifth Age...

Seriously, the man's bombast and presumption is far more staggering than Ar-Pharazon's (who was merely fighting the age-old struggle against overweening Valar Nanny Statism).

What this fellow is doing is landing-as a refugee, an immigrant seeking asylum-in lands held by fellow men.

There are two ways of dealing with being an immigrant.

The Parsee way, where you put yourself at the disposal of the local government and form a useful part of the existing community.

And the American Colonists way, where you declare the land yours and cripple the existing cultures.

Elendil, as his words show, clearly employed the second. Because of some notional Eru-given right, he drove out the indiginous "Twilight Men", ancestors of the Rohirrim, Dunlendings et al., forcing them to submit to vassalage under him or Sauron. Do not forget that many of these were Edain, just Edain who'd chosen to resist the Valar-coddling enterprise of Numenor! And all were Men! He should have respected their existing rights.

You damned Gil-Galad for far less (for no reason at all, as far as I can gather) when his tribe was in no especial dominating position.

But these Elendili are now running the show.

These genocidal interlopers must be stopped.

Alliance, League, whatever, just vote

++ELENDIL

Okay, do I even need to explain why Anguirel’s vote is going to be COUNTED? Anguriel ties his argument directly in to what Elendil did or did not do.

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

++ Celeborn

He didn't deserve his wife. He was complacent, calling himself lord while letting her rule. Not that letting her rule was the problem, she was better at it anyway. Calling himself lord is what's the sham, if we're going to talk about shams. Celebrimbor was the better Elf.

LMP directly references Celeborn’s history, and the apparent dominance of Galadriel in their relationship. His final line about Celebrimbor being better would probably have discounted him for me, had it been the only reason given, since “better” is a highly opinionated word to use- although one could make the case that it would still be a Tolkien-rationale. However, LMP has already given a reason I’m counting as valid.

COUNTED.

Originally Posted by Celuien

The Elendili are currently the strongest tribe and in need of thinning to keep balance. I'll go with Ang's argument that Elendil's hubris is beyond excuse.

Besides that, shouldn't he have done a little better job teaching Isildur to avoid things like shiny rings forged by Dark Lords? Would have saved Middle-earth tons of trouble if he did.

++ELENDIL

Had Celuien only posted her first line as her criteria (about the Elendili leading) this vote would have been discounted. Had we stuck with the first paragraph, it would have been dependent on Ang’s reasoning (and referring to other people’s reasoning, while not outright banned, is something I’m iffy about, though I allow it for now).

However, Celuien moves on in her second paragraph to give a firm, fine basis for a vote. She references Elendil’s relationship as to Isildur, as father, and references the events that took place in Tolkien’s world just after his death, laying the blame, right or wrong, at Elendil’s feet.

This vote is, therefore, easily COUNTED.

Originally Posted by lord of dor-lomin

I say we get rid of Treebeard. He didn't do anything of note in the Second Age.

I think the ents might be better off without him. Maybe a younger, more "hasty" ent would take charge, like Quickbeam.

+ + Treebeard

Again, this vote is COUNTED, in this case because of a direct reference to the fact that Quickbeam is hastier than Treebeard- and thus a better leader. Rather sorry logic regarding hastiness/leaders in my opinion, but it’s Tolkien-based, so the vote stands.

Originally Posted by the Phantom

Ooo, Eomer isn't going to like this, but I simply must, since I've been given an easy opportunity to bump him off.

+ + Fangorn (Treebeard)

I hate people who take to long to get to the point, and so I am very much anti-ent to begin with. And then consider, how much good do ents really do? Except for once every few thousand years they don't do anything of value. And they aren't even decent enough chaps to travel with their wives, but instead they just let them wander off to meet their fate alone.

If posted with only that first line, this vote of the Phantom’s would note have been counted. While ticking off other players is a noble and wise pursuit in and of itself, votes to evict candidates must be related to the candidate being voted for.

Hence, it is the second paragraph here that allows this vote to be counted. The Phantom directly refers to the unhastiness of Ents, the fact that they generally remain aloof, and their separation from the Entwives.

I must say, though, that did we not know that Treebeard was guilty of all these general Entish tendencies, I probably wouldn’t count this vote, since it isn’t directly related to Treebeard himself. However, we DO know that Treebeard was personally guilty of all these Entish faults, and so the vote is COUNTED.

Originally Posted by Lalaith

++ELENDIL

Reasons:
a. Too many Elendili
b. He got the Faithful out of Numenor, he'd done his bit. Why put him through the rigours of Survivor as well?
c. Ang's right. WHY don't we know his wife's name? Kept barefoot, pregnant and in the kitchen, was she, when the census taker came to call? For shame.

Again, this vote is COUNTED.

Lalaith’s first reason, too many Elendili, on its own, would discount it. What has this to do with Elendil himself? From an in-Middle-Earth perspective, the Elendili were vastly outnumbered anyway.

Her second reason is valid, since it refers to something that Elendil actually did. Although voting people off out of mercy seems a bit counter-intuitive, it’s Tolkien-based, so I’m more than willing to let it stand.

Her third reason would also be valid. Tolkien DIDN’T ever give us Mrs. Elendil’s name. Illogical speculation related thereto is a permissible rationale for voting.

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

And for old time's sake, I shall contribute towards Lalaith's parting gift, adopting wholesale her immaculate reasoning (if that's allowed ).

+ + ELENDIL

As with Part A of Celuien’s vote, whether or not SPM’s vote is counted depends on whether or not Lalaith’s is counted. Since Lalaith’s was counted, and since I have not discounted rationale-by-direct-reference-to-another-‘Downer’s-list proxy- despite misgivings-, this vote is also COUNTED.

Originally Posted by Tuor of Gondolin

+ + Treebeard

If you leave him in some movie maker will make him out to be a doofus easily tricked by a couple of immature hobbitses.

Sorry, Tuor, but yours is the first vote to be disqualified. There is no reference to anything that Treebeard actually does, or fails to do, or has happen to him- not even a connection to etymology of his name.

This vote is NOT COUNTED.

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Ang has convinced me.

++Elendil

Plus, I've never been an Elendil-fan.[/b]

Much like SPM’s this vote would not be counted if I had not already counted Anguirel’s.

COUNTED, albeit a bit grudgingly.

Originally Posted by Elu Ancalime

Lommy........<sigh> (I like Elendil)

++Treebeard

He really didnt do anything, and besides, he could've prevented the attack on the Entwives. If the Ents checked up the Wives more regularly, maybe the Wives would have stayed West of the ANduin, and Sauron might have left them alone.

Again, a direct reference to Treebeard’s lack of action, as well as a reference to the Ent/Entwife issue, laying the blame (rightly or wrongly) at Treebeard’s feet.

COUNTED.

Originally Posted by Eonwe

++Ohtar

If you think the Elendili need some thinning out, choose this guy. Once again, I don't know who he is. That should say it all.

With apologies to Eonwe, this vote is discounted.

The only rationale offered is that the Elendili need thinning (see my comments on Lalaith’s Reason 1 for why this is discounted) and that Eonwe doesn’t know who Ohtar is.

NOT COUNTED.



Okay, now, here we are at the end of all votes... for toDay...

The official records post will be up with these results momentarily.