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littlemanpoet · 03-15-2006, 04:20 PM

Thanks one and all for a very interesting and robust response to my humble thread. Now for answers to the replies (through Eonwe) so far:

Just a few points. Bullroarer Took was an exceptional Hobbit. So I can place him individually above Goblins, but not your typical Hobbit. Humans apparently have a greater potential than Elves, which is foreshadowed in Ilúvatar's words in the Ainúlindalë; however, the typical Human is far below the typical Elf in relative power. Therefore, Húrin and Túrin can conceivably considered to have attained a higher degree of power than Fëanor. Sorry, Ang. We are factoring in all the primary modes of power, not merely swordsmanship or magic, but will, word of power (closely related to magic, I suppose), and all other such that have an effect upon reality within the confines of Arda.

Ang, I need a reason to put Maedhros and Fingolfin above Fëanor.

Lalwendë, there is enough in the quoted text to include Ungoliant in the list. The "it is said" bit is a classic Tolkienism that is used to suggest legend and folklore rather than feigned history. Therefore, I'm going to go with the feigned history. One of the presuppositions for this thread is that there is no being that is independent of the creation of Eru.

I'm all for worms, fisticuffs, well made points, and corrections backed by evidence to this list. But it being my list, I will make decisions now and then to end certain points of debate, as I did above regarding Ungoliant. It was a very good effort, Lal, but doomed, as it butted its head up against an immutabilty.

Earendilyon: WiKi?

Thinlomien: Why put Smaug below Sauron? Does it say that Fëanor was the most powerful? If so, that is good evidence, but let's be sure. Where did Gandalf cope with all 9 Nazgúl at the same time? The Witchking was killed by means of a word of prophecy as much as by a woman and a Hobbit by whom the prophecy was fulfilled. Do you really think you can place Merry and Eowyn above Maiar? I can't agree on Gollum being more powerful than a typical Orc. He was, after all, just a Hobbit addicted to the Ring. The Ring itself, being a part of Sauron's power, would have to go below Sauron, but above Saruman and Gandalf, who admitted that it was too much for him. And no, Tom Bombadil does not become more powerful than Sauron on that account, because the Ring was of a nature by which it wouldn't affect him.

Boromir, even though the primary weapon is fear, it's not the only weapon. The Witch King and the other Nazgúl were negative spiritual forces. I think the Witch King left the Gate because of Rohan; he was ready to take on Gandalf right then and there, which suggests to me the WK at least thought he could win. Also, the power of the Nazgúl seems to have become greater later in the War. Which suggests to me that at one point Glorfindel is greater, but not later on. I'm not sure I can prove that. Any takers?

Eonwe, I'm looking for both hard and fast, and reasonable interpretations of data; if we don't allow the latter, there's no hope for getting anywhere with this (as if there ever were ha ha!). Slaying a creature does not make someone more powerful than that creature. Fate can come into play, and so can luck and skill. It helps, but does not create a one to one correlation.

Eru
Morgoth
Manwë
Varda
Yavanna
Ulmo
Aulë
Mandos
Tulkas
Lorien
Vana
Nessa
Earendil
Ancalagon
Ungoliant
Glaurung
Smaug
Sauron
Eonwë
Osse
Uinen
The Ring
Witch King of Angmar
Gandalf the White
Saruman
Gandalf the Grey
Balrogs
Thorondor
Eagles
Fëanor
Finrod Felagund
Húrin
Túrin Turambar (Morgoth slaying is eschatological)
Blue Istari
Radagast
Glorfindel
Tom Bombadil
Ents
Trolls
Shelob
Beleg
Goldberry
Elves
Uruk hai
Wargs
Humans
Dwarves
Orcs
Bullroarer Took
Gollum
Goblins
Spiders
Hobbits

Thanks much, the response has been very helpful so far. There's a long way to go, too.

03-15-2006, 04:20 PM	#4
littlemanpoet Itinerant Songster Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The Edge of Faerie Posts: 7,066	Running Tally #3 Thanks one and all for a very interesting and robust response to my humble thread. Now for answers to the replies (through Eonwe) so far: Just a few points. Bullroarer Took was an exceptional Hobbit. So I can place him individually above Goblins, but not your typical Hobbit. Humans apparently have a greater potential than Elves, which is foreshadowed in Ilúvatar's words in the Ainúlindalë; however, the typical Human is far below the typical Elf in relative power. Therefore, Húrin and Túrin can conceivably considered to have attained a higher degree of power than Fëanor. Sorry, Ang. We are factoring in all the primary modes of power, not merely swordsmanship or magic, but will, word of power (closely related to magic, I suppose), and all other such that have an effect upon reality within the confines of Arda. Ang, I need a reason to put Maedhros and Fingolfin above Fëanor. Lalwendë, there is enough in the quoted text to include Ungoliant in the list. The "it is said" bit is a classic Tolkienism that is used to suggest legend and folklore rather than feigned history. Therefore, I'm going to go with the feigned history. One of the presuppositions for this thread is that there is no being that is independent of the creation of Eru. I'm all for worms, fisticuffs, well made points, and corrections backed by evidence to this list. But it being my list, I will make decisions now and then to end certain points of debate, as I did above regarding Ungoliant. It was a very good effort, Lal, but doomed, as it butted its head up against an immutabilty. Earendilyon: WiKi? Thinlomien: Why put Smaug below Sauron? Does it say that Fëanor was the most powerful? If so, that is good evidence, but let's be sure. Where did Gandalf cope with all 9 Nazgúl at the same time? The Witchking was killed by means of a word of prophecy as much as by a woman and a Hobbit by whom the prophecy was fulfilled. Do you really think you can place Merry and Eowyn above Maiar? I can't agree on Gollum being more powerful than a typical Orc. He was, after all, just a Hobbit addicted to the Ring. The Ring itself, being a part of Sauron's power, would have to go below Sauron, but above Saruman and Gandalf, who admitted that it was too much for him. And no, Tom Bombadil does not become more powerful than Sauron on that account, because the Ring was of a nature by which it wouldn't affect him. Boromir, even though the primary weapon is fear, it's not the only weapon. The Witch King and the other Nazgúl were negative spiritual forces. I think the Witch King left the Gate because of Rohan; he was ready to take on Gandalf right then and there, which suggests to me the WK at least thought he could win. Also, the power of the Nazgúl seems to have become greater later in the War. Which suggests to me that at one point Glorfindel is greater, but not later on. I'm not sure I can prove that. Any takers? Eonwe, I'm looking for both hard and fast, and reasonable interpretations of data; if we don't allow the latter, there's no hope for getting anywhere with this (as if there ever were ha ha!). Slaying a creature does not make someone more powerful than that creature. Fate can come into play, and so can luck and skill. It helps, but does not create a one to one correlation. Eru Morgoth Manwë Varda Yavanna Ulmo Aulë Mandos Tulkas Lorien Vana Nessa Earendil Ancalagon Ungoliant Glaurung Smaug Sauron Eonwë Osse Uinen The Ring Witch King of Angmar Gandalf the White Saruman Gandalf the Grey Balrogs Thorondor Eagles Fëanor Finrod Felagund Húrin Túrin Turambar (Morgoth slaying is eschatological) Blue Istari Radagast Glorfindel Tom Bombadil Ents Trolls Shelob Beleg Goldberry Elves Uruk hai Wargs Humans Dwarves Orcs Bullroarer Took Gollum Goblins Spiders Hobbits Thanks much, the response has been very helpful so far. There's a long way to go, too.