[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by Eonwe

Finrod Felegund, as per your list already, is below both Feanor and Glorfindel. Finrod strove with Sauron on Tol-in-Gauthrol and matched him fairly well. Fairly well, though Sauron obviously had the mastery. We can assume, by common sense, that Sauron is quite a ways above the Witch King. And if Finrod is near Sauron, then he is above the Witch King. And so are Feanor and Glorfindel.

The Witch King's power comes from the ring he wears, the power of which is derived from the One Ring. Otherwise, he is a Black Numenorean Man; as such, he is less than many Elves. But the 'otherwise' is not the case we are dealing with. The nub of the issue is that Gandalf the White and the Witch King seem to be more or less evenly matched (Jackson was stupid for having WK break Gandalf's staff), but the WK the more dire of the two. If so, then the WK is greater than Balrogs. Which I find troublesome, because I'm not sure he is. So let's say that the Witch King actually is lesser than Gandalf the White. I think it's still safe to say that WK is greater than Saruman.

Now as to Finrod and Fëanor. So if it's true that Fëanor strove with a host of Balrogs and held his own, well, that's pretty incredible! That puts Fëanor above Gandalf the White but under the Ring, but that just doesn't seem right to me. At best Fëanor and Finrod go between Saruman and Gandalf the Grey.

Originally Posted by Eonwe

Also, Glorfindel was said to have slain a Balrog in the sack of Gondolin. Balrogs being what they are, corrupted Maia, no less, I would say that is a considerable feat. I would think Balrog would be above Witch King as well, considering they were the primary servents of Morgoth.

Although a considerable feat, to slay a creature in pitched battle is a different thing than to slay a creature in one to one combat. All kinds of extraneous factors come into pitched battles. Still, it is an incredible feat.

Originally Posted by Eonwe

Not to mention Gandalf. I think he is a bit of an enigma, considering that he is expressly forbidden to match himself power-for-power against the enemy. I think he would end up quite a bit farther up then you would expect, in a duel. (Remember, Gandalf the Grey is matched against the Balrog after performing the shutting spell, which seems to have weakened him quite a bit.)

I still see the Maiar of Valinor as above Gandalf the White, until someone can show me otherwise.

Originally Posted by Mr. U.

I've always thought this sort of "power" hierarchy is a red herring. Put rock, scissors, and paper in a hierarchy... see what I mean? Sauron's will beats Orcs, Orcish muscle beats hobbits, hobbit fortitude beats Sauron.

Originally Posted by Child

I mean the whole idea of making such a list runs counter to the message and spirit of Tolkien. Everything in LotR makes me realize that, at any given instant in time, the tables can be turned and someone from the bottom of the list can defeat someone higher up. What that means is that the list has no real meaning.

For example...

Originally Posted by Sauce

Saruman had great powers of persuasion and could corrupt nations and control vast armies, yet he was felled by the lowly Wormtongue.

Hobbit fortitude was not enough to defeat Sauron. Galadriel's Phial played an important role when they faced Shelob. Sting held Sam in good stead in the Tower of Cirith Ungol. My point is that we have here the power of Elves combined with the power of Hobbits, strength married to strength. I strongly disagree that this runs counter to the message and spirit of Tolkien. I would guess that among his notes such lists may very well be found. I have created such comparative lists in my own writing (not to say mine is on a par with Tolkien, far from it); such questions naturally arise from the writing process, and for me, in the appreciation process as well.

And your own point, Child, reinforces my efforts here: the tables can be turned because a certain Hobbit speaks a prayer to one of the highest ranking Valar in a time of need, while wielding and Elven sword and Phial of light. So in the Shelob instance alone, we have an evil spider spirit (who is clearly more than just a spider) facing a Hobbit fortified with the strength of Elves and a Vala.

Saruman's case is quite interesting. As I have already distinguished between Gandalf the Grey and White, it would be well to distinguish between Saruman of Orthanc and Saruman divested, or whatever adjective you wish to apply. The point is, Wormtongue wouldn't have had a prayer against Saruman before Gandalf the White broke Saruman's staff. Saruman divested was a crushed wizard, a broken but eloquent man.

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Hey, is this a democracy or a dictatorship?

This thread is a democracy and my list is a dictatorship. If you wish to be a dictator too, start a rival list. My list will continue to be Eru-centric, even to the extent of Ungoliant, Tom Bombadil, and Goldberry. I acknowledge the layering of which you speak; still, I believe there to be principles of spirit written into the texts that adhere to a hierarchical approach to "powers".

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

I do agree the list is a bit weird thing to do. But I thnk the power should be measured in how much did/could the individual affect the world.

Precisely. I could not have said it better. I would include groups as well. I bolded 'weird' because the word also has connotations of power of spirit; so I agree too.

Originally Posted by Earendilyon

the Wiki is the WitchKing.

Okay. Thanks.

IIRC, The Hobbit tells us, that Gollum once and a while ate some stray Orcs.

But Gollum is wearing the Ring when he kills these orcs (or Goblins, I like to differentiate between the two); he could never have done so without the Ring.

Originally Posted by Morsul the Dark

Dwarves should be above humans for this simple reason they have about equal strength but dwarves are smaller sooo proportionally they have greater strength.

You make a good case. Yet there is the potential in Humanity that goes far beyond Dwarvish potential. On the other hand, that potential is found in individuals, not groups; so as groups, I think that I am persuaded to put Dwarves above Humans .... in general.

Originally Posted by A narfforc

Where on the list would The Half-orcs come, lower or higher than the orcs, and what about Troll-men?

Uruk Hai are half-orcs. Hmm... maybe the belong between Humans and Orcs? Troll-men? Where are they found in Tolkien?

Eru
Morgoth
Manwë
Varda
Yavanna
Ulmo
Aulë
Mandos
Tulkas
Lorien
Vana
Nessa
Earendil
Ancalagon
Ungoliant
Glaurung
Smaug
Sauron
Eonwë
Osse
Uinen
The Ring
Gandalf the White
Witch King of Angmar
Saruman
Fëanor
Finrod Felagund
Melian
Galadriel
Thingol
Elrond
Gandalf the Grey
Glorfindel
Balrogs
Húrin
Túrin Turambar (Morgoth slaying is eschatological)
Círdan
Blue Istari
Thorondor
Eagles
Huan
Radagast
Tom Bombadil
Ents
Trolls
Shelob
Beleg
Goldberry
Elves
Wargs
Dwarves
Humans
Uruk hai
Orcs
Bullroarer Took
Gollum
Goblins
Spiders
Hobbits