[Anguirel]

I don't believe I have to be but to the inconvenience of crushing these absurdly formulated, wizened little misconceptions for the ten trillionth time. Ah well. Once more into the breach...

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

And what did he actually achieve?

Well, you've referenced quite a lot of what he achieved...if in a slanted fashion.

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

In the Second and Third Ages, he ruled over Lothlorien with Galadriel. He is said to be Lord of that realm. Yet it is clear who wore the trousers in that relationship. It was primarily Galadriel's power, and the power of her Ring, which maintained Lorien's defences. And it was she who, in reality, ruled there.

Oh?

Who marshalled Lorien's forces? Who provided justification for the pair being there in the first place? For without Celeborn Galadriel had no de jure right to lord it over a Sindar/Silvan people, as you, Saucie, a Man of Law, should recognise!

Celeborn provided a vital cultural and linguistic bridge between the Elves of Lorien and their airy Faerie Queene. She may be astonishing and captivating, intuitive and remarkable, but I can assure you that Celeborn would have held the practical grasp of governance.

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

He is said to have been the wisest of all Elves. Yet, even a cursory glance at the Lothlorien chapters of LotR will reveal that Galadriel was by far the wiser of the two.

Define wise. Galadriel may have seen far, but Celeborn too gave crucial advice, in a quiet, unflashy way. For instance he warned Boromir against scorning old wives' tales. Celeborn says what he thinks. He's an Elf with feet solidly on the ground-a rare combination.

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

He is said to have been the greatest giver of gifts. Yet it was Galadriel who bestowed the most useful gifts on the Fellowship.

Such an obvious point. And so obviously answered. Quite simply, boats-the single most vital gift for the Fellowship at that moment. And if you look at Galadriel's gifts...short of the Phial, she gave...belts, a bow to an Elf who already had one, a tacky gem and some earth...pretty things. But Celeborn gets the points for usefulness again.

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

He commanded the army that conquered Dol Guldur. Yet it was Galadriel who destroyed its walls, thus rendering its defences ineffective.

You're not going to make me extoll Celeborn at Galadriel's expense, but though her achievement was splendid, the battle was already won without her. It was won the moment Celeborn's army made the vital junction with Thranduil's-the Orcs, without Nazgul to lead them, were doomed thereafter.

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

Let's face it, Celeborn would have been nothing without Galadriel. And all that he did achieve relied heavily on her.

It is often contended that Celeborn "is nothing without Galadriel", "is tied to apon-strings"-one has to wonder, how on earth did he rule Rivendell for Ages in the plural after her departure, in the changing world after the Ring War? Yet again Celeborn shows that he has quality alone as well as with his wife.

But my real problem with the case against Celeborn is not that it is false or illogical, but that it is trite and boring. Saucie has just evicted Elrond and tried to evict Elros on a "support the underdogs" ticket (when the other option was Sauron...) With usual duplicity and doublethink, he now attacks one of those underdogs with exhausted, tedious, borrowed venom. It seems to me pathetic.

There. I lay it to rest; I have confidence in the good taste of the Barrowdowns.

Evict Amandil.

Eomer, back me up to help Celeborn and I'll join your protection of Treebeard.

Lhuna, never vote Celeborn again and I'll...smile. Savvee?