[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Davem

My own feeling is that Boromir is merely acknowledging Aragorn's skill as a warrior, even his claim of descent from Isildur. But it need not imply anything more than that. Faramir, who knew his brother better than anyone (including his father) was not so sure of his brother's reaction. You might as well say every descendant of Isildur from Arvedui (the first claimant from the North Kingdom) was 'rightful king'. The fact is none of them was king. Aragorn could have wandered around Middle-earth claiming the kingship till he was blue in the face & maybe no-one would have to have taken a blind bit of notice of him.You ain't king till you're crowned in fact, whatever the genealogists may say.

The issue is whether a descendant of the Northern Kings has a right to the crown of the Southern Kingdom, & that is what's in dispute, it seems to me. If, on Queen Elizabeth's death the UK declares itself a Republic Charles will not be king. Aragorn's ancestors lost the kingship of the only realm they were kings of. They were never kings of Gondor at all.

You are arguing Pelendur's case- a case that did not wish to see a stranger from the North sit as his king. Quite apart from the Boromir issue, where I play Devil's Advocate more than Defence Attorney, I would disagree with Pelendur's ruling. Quite possibly, Gondor would have agreed with Arvedui -and me- had he been but able to come to Gondor and put forward his case properly and in person. But Angmar threatened and such things were not possible.

That does not negate, however the fact that Isildur's Line had a legitimate claim. Isildur AND Anárion were Kings of Gondor. Possibly, it would have been most proper and correct for Gondor to have remained a Dual Monarchy. After all, there were two thrones set side by side under the Dome in Osgiliath. Although Pelendur makes a good case for the Line of Isildur having forfeited its rights as Kings of Gondor, this is not demonstrably provable from the texts we have in the Appendices, Unfinished Tales, and elsewhere. All that we can DEFINITELY see is that Isildur didn't neglect his inheritance of Arnor.

Furthermore, although Pelendur and the Council of Gondor reject Arvedui's claim, it seems clear that Tolkien does not. Since Tolkien is the creator of Middle-Earth, he ought to be it's final authority, no?

*Insert HERE Davem's counter-argument that Tolkien is enjoying his Translator's Conceit and that this is simply that Translator's opinion on the subject, and does not need to be taken as fact. To save time, I'll state that I disagree with that opinion emphatically.*

All of which is beside the point. The question at issue is whether Boromir accepted not only Aragorn's claim, but also his right. And even if he accepted both he could still have ignored them.

I just don't see Boromir leaving his city, realm & people to their fate while he chases off after a couple of Hobbits. Neither do I see him just accepting Aragorn's claim if he got to MT if his father was alive to reject it. That Boromir would defy his father's will is out of character. Do you really see Boromir accepting the role of Steward to Aragorn as Faramir did?

Perhaps he would have. But I have to say that I can't see any single point at which Boromir says 'Right, I acknowledge here & now that you are the king.' He obeys Aragorn's command but at that point he is shocked by his own behaviour & racked with guilt. He charges off unthinkingly & runs smack into a horde of Uruks, lays into them & gets shot down. Emotional roller-coaster or what. As he's dying Aragorn comes along & Boromir begs him to do what he will no longer be capable of doing himself - to 'save his people'. Where in all that you find an acknowledgement of Aragorn's kingship I don't know. Boromir is hardly the most rational & constant of men. He could acknowledge Aragorn's claim & then go back on it when it came to the pinch.

Boromir certainly saw in Aragorn a fellow warrior with a high pedigree, but that's very different from acknowledging him king of Gondor.

Whether or not Boromir accepted Aragorn as Rightful King, we cannot demonstrate clearly from the texts. My reading of it says that he did. My reading of it also says that Balrogs have no wings, that Elves have normalish ears, and that it is fundamentally Catholic. There is, on any of these topics, no clear, complete statement that makes it completely obvious to everyone what is the case- though there are certainly enough statements that from my point of view it ought to be OBVIOUS.

Finally, the majority is not always right. If Gandalf, as Head of the Istari- and thus representative of Manwë, Vicegerent of Ilúvatar, says that Aragorn's claim to the throne is Right, then it is Right- whether you want to accept it or no. And I am not arguing here that Boromir accepted it, but that it was Right for him to have accepted it- assuming he did.

And, somewhat offtopically, for the record, I hold James II (Stuart) to have been Rightful King of England, his son to have been the rightful James III, and Bonnie Prince Charlie to have been the Rightful King Charles III (which would thus have made the current Prince Charles, Charles IV). This could possibly have something to do with my Catholic upbringing: "Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's".