At last...
JennyHallu, yes it would be a challenge indeed, though I would much rather role play a character of a race I am far more familiar, call me a bore if you will, but I find it far more comforting to remain in familiar grounds on this subject. As for your query to whether Sauron was able to do so, I would suggest that Sauron was not able to do so. So far as he did not need too; the reign on Melkor had been sufficient enough and his power sufficient to “twist” the image of the elves,
“But of those unhappy ones who were ensnared by Melkor little is known of a certainty. For who of the living has descended into the pits of Utumno, or has explored the darkness of the counsels of Melkor? Yet this is held true by the wise of Eressëa, that all those of the Quendi who came into the hands of Melkor, ere Utumno was broken, were put there in prison, and by slow arts of cruelty were corrupted and enslaved; and thus did Melkor breed the hideous race of the Orcs in envy and mockery of the Elves, of whom they were afterwards the bitterest foes. For the Orcs had life and multiplied after the manner of the Children of Ilúvatar;…” - Chapter 3 Of the Coming of the Elves and the Captivity of Melkor
The conclusive evidence provided by the Silmarillion enables us to “blame” this atrocity on Melkor, yet their reproduction in the like of the Elves enabled many to come into the service of Melkor before the rule of Sauron that he did not need too.
There is reference in the Lord of the Rings trilogy to the orcs “multiplying”. I believe the reference is in the appendix.
Gothmog and JennyHallu, would you concur that the quotation provides a “source” of the orc? However there is quotation in Letter 153, as follows;
“As for other points. I think I agree about the 'creation by evil'. But you are more free with the word 'creation' than I am. Treebeard does not say that the Dark Lord 'created' Trolls and Orcs. He says he 'made' them in counterfeit of certain creatures pre-existing.” – [Letter #153]
You will notice that the words ‘Dark Lord’ are used, one of the many alias Sauron was known as. Yet the creation of orcs we know to have been at a far more early stage, as shown by my first quotation, than the coming of Sauron and the giving of the alias ‘Dark Lord’. Therefore could it be referring to Morgoth? Possibly.
However Tolkien uses the words ‘Prime Dark Lord’ in an earlier sentence in the same letter, to which he means Morgoth. (I will not post the quote for I fear I am already waffling. Though if you wish it then I would edit it in.) Therefore are we to assume that this alias is one he would actually use to name Morgoth or is it merely a means to describe the primacy and complete origins of Morgoth?
I think not, and would suggest that Sauron could indeed continue the work of Morgoth in twisting creatures to his will and into a like that he desired; Ent to Troll. The subject of Saurons power to ‘create’ is furthered perhaps by the existence of the following quote,
“That Sauron bred them none doubted, though from what stock was not known. Some held that they were not Trolls but giant Orcs; but the Olog-hai were in fashion of body and mind quite unlike even the largest of Orc-kind, whom they far surpassed in size and power. Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race, strong, agile, fierce and cunning, but harder than stone. Unlike the older race of the Twilight they could endure the Sun, so long as the will of Sauron held sway over them.” – Appendix F [My bold]
And so your suggestion Elu as to the genome of the Olog hai being in two parts, from the Ents is a little tenuous. They were altered Trolls, created by Sauron. Thoughts??
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"I am, I fear, a most unsatisfactory person."
- (Letter #124 To Sir Stanley Unwin)
Last edited by Mänwë; 06-05-2006 at 08:33 AM.
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