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Originally Posted by davem
.. even if one accepts a 'Christian sub-text' to the story all that proves is that Tolkien was a Christian & the story reflected his worldview. That said, he deliberately 'concealed' any explicit reference to his religion, which means that if you don't want to pick up on the sub-text you can safely ignore it.
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This is so.
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Originally Posted by davem
The unique thing about Christianity is the Incarnation, nothing else.
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Oh really? As if the incarnation itself is no big deal...
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Originally Posted by davem
Well, the scientists are merely being honest there & I can't see how you can criticise them for that.
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How did you see my words as criticism? I wasn't pejoratizing them, just stating the way things are. Or do you presume that since I'm a Christian, I must be anti-science?
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I'm not ... interested enough ... to decide which of the various religious or scientific 'traditions' are True.
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Bull's eye.
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Originally Posted by Lalwendė
Well, what about Sam? ... If the ownership of The Ring was being controlled by Eru because it had to be controlled by Eru, then what does this say about Sam, who gave it up willingly? Or more specifically, about his relationship with both Ring and Eru?
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Yes, I found that very interesting. Tolkien states that Sam is the real hero of the story. He is the only one who gives it up freely. He is the only one for whom loyalty to, and love for, another are strong enough to overcome the temptation of the Ring. It's a powerful moment. The Ring wielded all the will it had to muster against Sam; Tolkien makes that clear, but Sam resists successfully. Plain horse sense? Is Sam just too mundane? Too humble of a gardener? Lacking in imagination such that the Ring's lure can only be deemed ludicrous? Nope. This Hobbit has grown. There's all kinds of transcendence going on here. The Elves already in the Shire started changing this Hobbit, and he gains wisdom. The Elves in LotR, are bestowers of wisdom and grace, and Sam readily receives. Because he loves and listens to the Elves, and listens to them and understands them (in his own way), he receives what he is able through them, of the mind of Eru, wisdom enough to now his own weakness, his own smallness, his right place in the scheme of things. That was wordy. Sorry.
Drigel, I believe that it was needed. And necessary. .... at least for the sake of mythic unities recovered. But that's another thread.