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Old 07-11-2006, 03:09 AM   #18
Macalaure
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Macalaure is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.Macalaure is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.Macalaure is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.
Very interesting post, Anguirel. However, I disagree at some points.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Anguirel
So, as you say, sons (first and second) are probably more likely to resort to ambitious adventuring. This immortality of Elves might have, therefore, increased their drive to acquire temporal wealth. We do actually see a lot of Elves founding realms-in the Silmarillion. In Valinor, the royal families are cooped up under their unquestioned heads, drifting from Valarin hall to Valarin hall. The Rebellion of the Noldor must have released a lot of supressed creative and acquisitive energy. We can see this in the magnificent dreams and thirst for power of Galadriel, for instance.
I don't think immortality has a lot to do with it. The Elves were content in Valinor and the heirs were content with most probably never getting into power. This is just the nature of the Elves, Men would have found it much harder to cope with it. The Elves don't start to demand realms of their own until Melkor influences them (yes, even Galadriel) and with the Vanyar even this doesn't work.


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Even in the Third Age we see an example of such a pioneering elven realm-Legolas' land in Ithilien, because despite being "Prince of Mirkwood" he wasn't likely to inherit it anytime soon...
Again, I don't think Legolas left Mirkwood because there wasn't anything to inherit there. He left because he liked Ithilien better (who could blame him for that?). Being a prince, of course, he then took some of his father's people with him. I don't recall if this is stated, but does Legolas ask for permission to do it? This is important, I think.


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Returning to Beleriand, by the First Age things would be a lot more variable, but probably generally the Kings would be-and would need to be-extremely powerful. They after all kept large enough armies in the field to keep Morgoth locked in for some time. That needs unquestioned obedience.
I'm not sure whether you are still referring to the alpha-Elvenkings here. If so, then I disagree. Prior to the Bragollach, Fingolfin made up his mind and wanted to attack Morgoth with all power of Elves and Men. Maedhros liked the cushions of his couch better, and that was it. And prior to the Nirnaeth, Fingon's power was obviously not enough to get Orodreth to move. Even in Beleriand, the power of the High Kings was few more than ceremonial, I think. Fingolfin and Fingon ruled Mithrim - farther their influence did not spread. The siege of Angband only worked because the leaders of the three houses of the Noldor agreed to it, not because Maedhros and Finrod obeyed.
I don't think that the High Kingship of the Noldor held a lot of power, or if it did, it at least wasn't used to be exercised. Turgon, the High King's son, completely vanished with a lot of the King's folk from one day to the other without leaving an address and without asking for leave. Later, Turgon himself becomes King, but he is in no position to effectively rule anything but his own realm.
If you're referring to beta-kings like the early Turgon etc., then you might be right.

I think it is similar with the Teleri of Beleriand. Officially, Thingol is the King of them all, even the Laiquendi if I recall it correctly. But what did his word count in the Falas or in Ossiriand (Ossiriand is particularly interesting, as they are the only Elves to not have a proper ruler at all. Ah! Got it. That's why they're called Green-elves )? A lot of the Sindar were wandering around the whole of Beleriand and the lands to the north. Though they were under the rule of Thingol, they were virtually free - how could an order reach them? To me, this contrasts a lot to the likes of Beleg, Mablung or Eöl, over whom Thingol's rule is much stronger and more immediate.
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