[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Roa

I was actually refering to all post-game discussions and some in game discussions that have ended up this way, not just this debate. And it's not just me- it's anyone who has ever pointed out something that others simply don't want to hear. Many players, beyond those I have mentioned, have been subjected to the same. I'm not talking about blatent insults and name-calling, I'm talking about being truthful with how we think things went. Any time someone has said something less than "Great job," about the game, they have been attacked for it.

Being “truthful” about how things went is all very well, provided that it does not come across as personal criticism or lecturing. In all the Werewolf games that have been played on the Downs, only a handful of the post-game analyses (all of which have involved discussing how things went) have given rise to people being upset or offended. So it’s clearly possible to discuss such things in a good-natured fashion without giving cause for offence. It is, I think, mainly a matter of choosing the right tone and manner. In most cases where problems have arisen, the underlying cause of any rancour has not been the unpopular opinion, but the manner in which it has been expressed.

In the future, I don’t want to see anyone being attacked (ie subjected to personal criticism, abuse or victimisation) for expressing their opinion, even if it is an unpopular one, provided that such opinion has been expressed in an inoffensive and measured fashion. That applies across the board.

Originally Posted by Roa

Really, I was pointing out the absurdity of people demanding that I change the way I talk when they flip out over the slightest suggestion that their way of playing a game is less than great.

There is no absurdity or hypocrisy here. No one is accusing you of inept or ineffective posting (far from it ), which would be the equivalent of commenting that someone did not play particularly well. Subject to the exceptions specific to in-game posts that I mentioned earlier, the same principle applies to both gaming style and posting style. If it breaches forum guidelines (ie involves personal criticism or is uncivil, impolite or reasonably capable of giving offence) then it is unacceptable. Beyond that, I am not asking anyone to change anything.

Originally Posted by Roa

I certainly believe Nogrod is sincere in his apology. I just don't think he did anything particularly wrong, and I really admire that he would simply apologize rather than waste the effort defending himself. What I meant is that he shouldn't be made to feel bad for saying what he thought.

Well, if we accept his apology as genuine (which both you and I do), he obviously felt that there was something to apologise for.

Originally Posted by Roa

Just think back to the game Diamond modded- Attack of the Wereducks. Because of in-game rudeness, many people left the game feeling horrible. There were direct insults flying all over the place. Yet these very people say that I'm insulting, when I haven't singled anyone out, or used any sort of direct name-calling.

I would prefer, in this discussion, to consider the best way of moving forward, rather than looking to the past. However, your reference to the Wereducks game does bring up a point worth making. Most of the grief expressed in that game was as a result of players (the Ducks and the Goose, in particular) doing, or attempting to do, what their roles required them to do. Anyone who plays Werewolf has to accept that, within the context of the game, they are going to be accused of lying and/or not be believed when they are telling the truth. That is a function of the game. While it can sometimes be difficult (and I have been guilty of this myself in the past) we have to avoid being over-sensitive to such things when they happen within the game.

Originally Posted by Roa

I took up pming Loki (in attempt to calm things down) and do you know what I found out? People neg-repped him, and pm'ed with various messages of "I hope you leave the boards," and "I really don't like you. Just go away."

I don’t condone neg reps or PMs like that. It would have been much better to point out the ways in which his rude and abrasive approach was inconsistent with the forum guidelines. In hindsight, I should have done that myself at the time. But I have learned from that. I would note, however, that his style was markedly different from that of Garin, who is “abrasive” in a humorous and inoffensive manner. As far as I can recall, I have never had any problem with Garin’s posting style.

Originally Posted by Roa

And I would like to reiterate that I never mean to insult anyone. As Form pointed out, I'm extremely self-confident and highly opinionated, and as he missed, brutally honest. This gets me into trouble often, but it's who I am. Don't take me personally- if I want to attack you personally, I'll do it in PM.

Self-confidence, strength of mind and honesty are wonderful traits to have. But, in a forum such as this, they should be tempered with politeness, courtesy and respect (rather than brutality ). If that means biting your tongue (or keyboard) occasionally in order to avoid giving offence, then so be it. Proper adherence to the forum guidelines can sometimes require that.

Originally Posted by Lhuna

Okay, I think I'm straying from my point. It's just this: we've had more than twenty games, counting the Junior ones as well, and we've had a variety of characters to play, some of which required styles that could somehow affect the outcome of the game for ill, particularly - causing confusion, being offensive, etc. But why were odd playing styles tolerated in earlier games, while now they come under heavy scrutiny? Why are things getting more and more serious as the games pass? Why does there seem to be an increasing obsession to win, leading to uncomfortable post-game discussions when one side loses - as should really happen?

I agree with this, and the final point is perhaps the most pertinent (and it is one reiterated by Valier). We have come to a stage where the winning, for some people at least, is assuming greater importance the taking part, and the post-game discussions are starting to reflect this. If winning is important to you (and it certainly is to me), by all means try your hardest in the game to achieve that. But not everyone has the same approach. Some people just want to take part and have some fun, and there is nothing wrong with that. And that is a point that should be borne in mind in the post-game discussions.

Originally Posted by Valier

I feel that the even the grimoire is kinda a bad thing, because it keeps track of who won what and in what fashion. WHO CARES!!! Just have fun!!

I was beginning to wonder that myself. But I would prefer to keep it going for now, and rely on people being sensible enough not to take it too seriously.

Diamond, I agree with much of what you say, but the principles that I have outlined apply to you as much as they do to the rest of us. Accordingly, I think that it would be helpful if you were to take care to avoid adopting an overly confrontational approach, particularly in discussions like this (whatever the provocation – let me deal with that). For example:

Originally Posted by Diamond18

This statement has me floored because it's simply not true. It's... not... true … Therefore the above quoted statement is false.

It strikes me that this is another illustration of the importance choosing your words carefully. Rather than accusing someone of telling untruths, would it not be better simply to say that you disagree and then state why?

This, of course, applies to everyone. Consider your words carefully (just like you would if you were playing a Wolf ) and take account of the effect that they may have on those reading.

For my own part, I know that some of the things that I have said risk making me unpopular in some quarters. But they need to be said and, for my sins, I have assumed the responsibility for doing so and for ensuring that the principles which I have outlined are adhered to in the future. I would, however, ask for eveyone’s co-operation in that regard, since that will make my job a lot easier (and less time-consuming).