[Aiwendil]

Some interesting thoughts from everyone. I think that both Piosenniel and Mister Underhill have annunciated what I find so appealing about this work; there's something very beautiful about the prose (even on the level of sound) as well as in the elegance of the concept. I'm a bit of a musician, and I've always found Tolkien's description of the music very evocative:

. . . and a sound arose of endless interchanging melodies woven in harmony that passed beyond hearing into the depths and into the heights, and the places of the dwelling of Iluvatar were filled to overflowing, and the music and the echo of the music went out into the Void, and it was not void.

But perhaps my favorite passage is:

In the midst of this strife, whereat the halls of Iluvatar shook and a tremor ran out into the silences yet unmoved, Iluvatar arose a third time, and his face was terrible to behold. Then he raised up both his hands, and in one chord, deeper than the Abyss, higher than the Firmament, piercing as the light of the eye of Iluvatar, the Music ceased.

A suggestion of the end of the world (Dagor Dagorath), perhaps?

Raynor wrote:

Well... Eru is named the "one wholly free Will and Agent" (letter #156); ultimately, _all_ creation, from Ainu to rocks, is a manifestation of Eru

I'm not sure I agree. Certainly everything in the world was created by Iluvatar, but surely that's different from everything being a manifestation of him.

Bethberry wrote:

Eru is identified in the second line of the story by the masculine pronoun and he alone is accorded the priviledge of supreme creation. Creation for Tolkien is thus a male perogative?

One could say the same about Judeo-Christianity, of course. Certainly there's a kind of sexism there, but I think there are two possible types to be distinguished; is it conceptual or linguistic sexism? In other words, is it true that Iluvatar is fundamentally "male", or is this a case of the masculine pronoun being used as a sort of default for a person of unspecified sex (something that happens in English all the time)? If you ask me, the former offense is significantly graver than the latter.

when were the Ainur given the Secret Fire?

An interesting question. A related one is: if the Ainur were "kindled with the Flamer Imperishable", why did Melkor spend so much time seeking the Secret Fire in the Void? I have always understood the text to mean not that the Ainur were given the Secret Fire (as Melkor wanted) but simply that Iluvatar had created them using the Secret Fire - and that as a result, they have a kind of sub-creative ability.

What it means for the Secret Fire to be "at the heart of the World", as [i]Mark12_30[/b] inquires, is another mystery.

And, am I correct in understanding that time exists only once Iluvatar enunciates his famous "Ea" (which word I think also belongs to Babylonian creation myth). My mind boggles at music outside of time--a music without a succession of notes?

I remember having some discussion of this point in a thread long ago, but its name escapes me. What I said there was that, in my view, stories about places "without time" invariably do seem to involve time. Without time, nothing happens. There could be no creation, no thought, etc., etc. I've therefore always understood the "Timeless Halls" of Iluvatar not to be "timeless" in that sense - perhaps, rather, timeless in that they are eternal.

Laitoste wrote:

It strikes me that water is similar to music. Many words that describe water also can be used to describe music; for example, in the Ainulindale, the second theme began "amid the storm", and the third theme was a "mere rippling" at first, then "took to to itself power and profundity" (5). What also intrigues me is that Ulmo was "of all most deeply...instructed by Iluvatar in music" (8).

A very good point. It seems to me that Tolkien continually associates water and music. Aren't the Teleri (the Elves closest to Ulmo and most enamoured of the Sea) said to be great musicians? I also seem to recall some statement (somewhere in HoMe, perhaps) to the effect that an echo of the Music of the Ainur lives still in the seas and the rivers of the world.

Edit: cross-posted with Lalwende