[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Beth

These comments must, I think, relate to what Tolkien suggests is the essential nature of fairie, not magic, nor elves, nor darkness nor travel, nor wild imagining, but “Recovery, Escape, and Consolation” .

I think that on the one hand magic represents a/the fundamental element of Fairy Stories, while recovery is an important effect of them on the reader (therefore we don't have a dilema):

Originally Posted by OFS

Faerie itself may perhaps most nearly be translated by Magic—but it is magic of a peculiar mood and power, at the furthest pole from the vulgar devices of the laborious, scientific, magician

The essential face of Faerie is the middle one, the Magical [towards Nature].

But fairy-stories offer also, in a peculiar degree or mode, these things: Fantasy, Recovery, Escape, Consolation, all things of which children have, as a rule, less need than older people.

Originally Posted by Beth

It is not simply that something redeems the sorry or perilous state of the hero, but that the hero must come to accept his final defeat, this tragedy or catastrophe, before he will be for the time being delivered from it.

Hm, I don't think Tolkien shared this idea - after all, he expected the most thorough observance of moral standards on behalf of his heroes. Frodo did not accept his fate on Mount Doom, he was forced into submission by a higher force than he (and with the rarest of exceptions, anyone) could handle.

Originally Posted by Beth

Some time ago I posted on the Downs that a later reading of LotR made me see that the quest is about Death.

I agree, he stated so in at least two letters:

Originally Posted by Letter #186

I do not think that even Power or Domination is the real centre of my story. It provides the theme of a War, about something dark and threatening enough to seem at that time of supreme importance, but that is mainly 'a setting' for characters to show themselves. The real theme for me is about something much more permanent and difficult: Death and Immortality: the mystery of the love of the world in the hearts of a race 'doomed' to leave and seemingly lose it; the anguish in the hearts of a race 'doomed' not to leave it, until its whole evil-aroused story is complete.

Originally Posted by Letter #203

That there is no allegory does not, of course, say there is no applicability. There always is. And since I have not made the struggle wholly unequivocal: sloth and stupidity among hobbits, pride and [illegible] among Elves, grudge and greed in Dwarf-hearts, and folly and wickedness among the 'Kings of Men', and treachery and power-lust even among the 'Wizards', there is I suppose applicability in my story to present times. But I should say, if asked, the tale is not really about Power and Dominion: that only sets the wheels going; it is about Death and the desire for deathlessness. Which is hardly more than to say it is a tale written by a Man!

Originally Posted by TSoAR

If the deludinccccnot in some way involved in Tolkien's vision of evil I should be extremely surprised. Morgoth and Sauron both share qualities with the Great Adversary, who is the inevitable model for evil in the Christian mind. Lucifer was once the brightest of angels, and in at least one Anglo-Saxon poem both he and his rebel angels are portrayed as retaining the ability to appear in the angelic form that once they possessed. In fact this is central to the temptation of Eve in Genesis B, a poem both several hundred years older and quite a lot better than Paradise Lost. For Tolkien not to be influenced by an element of his own religion's philosophy which he would encounter regularly in his philological studies he would need to be more difficult to influence than even C.S. Lewis thought. I suspect that the same motif had influenced medieval fantastic fiction, whence come many of Tolkien's theories about fairy-stories.

I agree

Originally Posted by Melkor/Morgoth, Myths Transformed, HoME X

As a shadow Melkor did not then conceive himself. For in his beginning he loved and desired light, and the form that he took was exceedingly bright

Originally Posted by Atrabeth

Then one [Melkor] appeared among us, in our own form visible, but greater and more beautiful; and he said that he had come out of pity.

Originally Posted by Of the rings of power and the third age, Silmarillion

Men [Sauron] found the easiest to sway of all the peoples of the Earth; but long he sought to persuade the Elves to his service, for he knew that the Firstborn had the greater power; and he went far and wide among them, and his hue was still that of one both fair and wise.

Originally Posted by Lal

Well if we hope in any way to reflect Faerie then yes, a tale does have to reflect the amorality of Faerie, as that's the nature of the place/concept - its somewhere outside the rules, beyond the law and out of most people's comprehension. If humans are inescapably moral (and some might argue we are at root simply apes with the evolutionary benefits of walking upright, having opposable thumbs and having a varied diet) then the writers of Faery tales might put a moral 'spin' on them. In fact its probably right that there are moral spins on all Faery tales written by humans as we only have our own understanding of the world on which to base our writings of encounters with Faerie. Therefore if we take a particular moral stance then we might put that spin on our stories to a greater or lesser degree.

I don't think that Fairy is in any way more amoral than our world is; in some cases, some characters do behave amorally, or the story we know presents them so. But I don't think that we should derive from this an absolute axiom; for one thing, most of the romanian oral tradition of fairy tales is deeply moral in nature.

Originally Posted by Lal

Hey, what about Reader Response? I can think of Eru as evil if I want!

Err, that reminds me of what I thought about critics in highschool

Originally Posted by Lal

Anyway, just check out some of the text that we found as it at the very least suggests that Tolkien began with a distinctly amoral character for Ungoliant. Note also that she is exploited by Melkor, and Tolkien states that nobody knew where she came from, not the Elves nor Melkor; she came from The Void, she was not an Ainur nor was she an animal, she just was.

Bringing the "she was" argument does not have that much of a weight in giving a character a godly status. He rejected a similar interpretation in the case of Tom:

Originally Posted by Letter #153

[(Peter Hastings) also cited the description of Bombadil by Goldberry: 'He is.' Hastings said that this seemed to imply that Bombadil was God.]

As for Tom Bombadil, I really do think you are being too serious, besides missing the point. (Again the words used are by Goldberry and Tom not me as a commentator). You rather remind me of a Protestant relation who to me objected to the (modern) Catholic habit of calling priests Father, because the name father belonged only to the First Person, citing last Sunday's Epistle – inappositely since that says ex quo. Lots of other characters are called Master; and if 'in time' Tom was primeval he was Eldest in Time. But Goldberry and Tom are referring to the mystery of names.

Moreover, Ungoliant: "was one of those that he corrupted to his service
"(Of the darkening of Valinor; if we compare this with:

Originally Posted by Of the enemies, Valaquenta, Silmarillion

For of the Maiar many were drawn to his splendour in the days of his greatness, and remained in that allegiance down into his darkness; and others he corrupted afterwards to his service with lies and treacherous gifts.

then it implies rather clearly her origin; Chris' comentaries too on the fourth section of the Annals of Aman accept this.