[Bêthberry]

Thanks for quoting those Letters, Raynor.

Originally Posted by Raynor

I think that on the one hand magic represents a/the fundamental element of Fairy Stories, while recovery is an important effect of them on the reader (therefore we don't have a dilema)

Thanks also for providing this clarification. I had been referring to that other form of magic Tolkien references, the one he calls mere mechanical magic and should have made that distinction clear.

Originally Posted by myself

It is not simply that something redeems the sorry or perilous state of the hero, but that the hero must come to accept his final defeat, this tragedy or catastrophe, before he will be for the time being delivered from it.

Originally Posted by Raynor

Hm, I don't think Tolkien shared this idea - after all, he expected the most thorough observance of moral standards on behalf of his heroes. Frodo did not accept his fate on Mount Doom, he was forced into submission by a higher force than he (and with the rarest of exceptions, anyone) could handle.

Other than cringing at my phrasing, there, I would say there are two ways that your concerns here can be addressed. First of all, it is I would say a matter of interpretation whether Frodo failed or not. That is, fans and scholars would not have been able to expend all the ink they do in discussing this point had it been crystal clear. I personally accept Tolkien's explanation that all that was required of Frodo was that he expend himself to the utmost to allow conditions to enable the destruction of the Ring. (Now, how's that for a convoluted grammar?) There is, to me, no failure in that.

Other than this recourse to the inevitable differences of opinion, however, is the significance of this idea of eucatastrophe. If any good happenstance or reversal of fortune is taken to be Eru's silent hand (not to be confused with Adam Smith's), then that to my mind cheapens Tolkien's idea of facing one's doom. It distorts them away from the most powerful expression of Hope which resides in his idea. There are two passages in the Orodruin chapter which reflect what I had meant to express.

Originally Posted by Frodo, Mount Doom

'I am naked in the dark, Sam,' and there is not veil between me and the wheel of fire. I begin to see it even with my waking eyes, and all else fades.

This is before the Ring overwhelms Frodo's will. Even more to my point is a following passage.

Originally Posted by passage on Sam and Frodo, Mount Doom

With a gasp Frodo cast himself on the ground. Sam sat by him. To his surprise he felt tired but lighter, and his head seemed clear again. No more debates disturbed his mind. He knew all the arguments of despair and would not listen to them. His will was set, and only death would break it. He knew that all the hazards and perils were now drawing together to a point: the next day would be a day of doom, the day of final effort or disaster, the last gasp.

This was the point of final acceptance of fate which I meant and it is fascinating in that the grammar of the pronoun 'he' is not expressly clear. It is not a failure by any means or a loss of moral standards but the point of ultimate understanding that the journey has come to its last stand.