The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum - View Single Post - Did Saruman Believe He Could Master The One Ring?

Fordim Hedgethistle · 10-27-2006, 08:21 AM

Interesting indeed....

Mith, your summary of what Sauron could or would reasonably know is compelling but I think there is a crucial point you are missing, and that is Sauron would easily have recognised that Pippin is not Frodo and therefore not the Ringbearer.

Remember, the Witch King stabbed Frodo at Weathertop when Frodo was wearing the Ring, and given the rather, shall we say, close relationship between the Nazgul and Sauron we can safely assume that the good, close-up look they got of Frodo there would have been transmitted to Sauron. It's also more than likely that they saw the other three hobbits as well (if not quite so well) and passed along those descriptions to him.

So when Sauron sees Pippin in the Palantir he would have known instantly that this particular hobbit is not the Ringbearer, thus Saruman has got the wrong hobbit -- hence the laugh perhaps? ("Stupid Sarumman! Wrong Halfling!") It is possible, I suppose, that Sauron would think that the Ring had been given to Pippin, but I find that hard to believe...I mean, if anyone is going to know how hard it would be for someone to give up the Ring it's going to be the Dark Lord. And besides, from his point of view, why bother getting Frodo to give up the Ring to another hobbit? One Halfling is pretty much the same as another (to him) and if the Ring is going to be given to someone else it would probably be (to Sauron's way of thinking) a person of Power who could use it against him.

I also find it hard to believe that Sauron could not instantly tell the difference between someone who had borne (and even worn) the Ring and someone who had not. The Ring has a terrible and marked presence and leaves its effect on any who take it, and Sauron would have to be able to see that. Gollum, having worn the Ring, feels the call of Sauron and goes to Mordor, and when he's captured he's not summarily killed but taken to Sauron and questioned by the Big Boss himself. Why would Sauron bother with such a pathetic thing if he wasn't able to see at a glance that Gollum was the product of his own Ring?

So when Sauron sees Pippin in the Palantir he sees not the Ringbearer, neither does he feel the effect nor the presence of the Ring. It might be that at this point he thinks that perhaps Saruman has more than one Halfling and that Frodo has been taken, but that's really speculating now -- and if this is the case, why would he not say "these dainties" or "they"? Unless, of course, "dainty" and "it" refer to the Ring, which -- as I say -- I don't think they do (for all of the above reasons).

I also don't see Sauron referring to his Ring as a "dainty" anything....

10-27-2006, 08:21 AM	#16
Fordim Hedgethistle Gibbering Gibbet Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Beyond cloud nine Posts: 1,844	Interesting indeed.... Mith, your summary of what Sauron could or would reasonably know is compelling but I think there is a crucial point you are missing, and that is Sauron would easily have recognised that Pippin is not Frodo and therefore not the Ringbearer. Remember, the Witch King stabbed Frodo at Weathertop when Frodo was wearing the Ring, and given the rather, shall we say, close relationship between the Nazgul and Sauron we can safely assume that the good, close-up look they got of Frodo there would have been transmitted to Sauron. It's also more than likely that they saw the other three hobbits as well (if not quite so well) and passed along those descriptions to him. So when Sauron sees Pippin in the Palantir he would have known instantly that this particular hobbit is not the Ringbearer, thus Saruman has got the wrong hobbit -- hence the laugh perhaps? ("Stupid Sarumman! Wrong Halfling!") It is possible, I suppose, that Sauron would think that the Ring had been given to Pippin, but I find that hard to believe...I mean, if anyone is going to know how hard it would be for someone to give up the Ring it's going to be the Dark Lord. And besides, from his point of view, why bother getting Frodo to give up the Ring to another hobbit? One Halfling is pretty much the same as another (to him) and if the Ring is going to be given to someone else it would probably be (to Sauron's way of thinking) a person of Power who could use it against him. I also find it hard to believe that Sauron could not instantly tell the difference between someone who had borne (and even worn) the Ring and someone who had not. The Ring has a terrible and marked presence and leaves its effect on any who take it, and Sauron would have to be able to see that. Gollum, having worn the Ring, feels the call of Sauron and goes to Mordor, and when he's captured he's not summarily killed but taken to Sauron and questioned by the Big Boss himself. Why would Sauron bother with such a pathetic thing if he wasn't able to see at a glance that Gollum was the product of his own Ring? So when Sauron sees Pippin in the Palantir he sees not the Ringbearer, neither does he feel the effect nor the presence of the Ring. It might be that at this point he thinks that perhaps Saruman has more than one Halfling and that Frodo has been taken, but that's really speculating now -- and if this is the case, why would he not say "these dainties" or "they"? Unless, of course, "dainty" and "it" refer to the Ring, which -- as I say -- I don't think they do (for all of the above reasons). I also don't see Sauron referring to his Ring as a "dainty" anything.... __________________ Scribbling scrabbling.