[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

The two are not mutually exclusive.

I did not say they were mutually exclusive. This was in response to an earlier post expressing the opinion “that Minas Ithil was a walled city not a fortess [sic]”.

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

…three days is nothing like two years.

Second, while just for the sake of discussion I’ll go with the idea that the Nazguls’ army outnumbered the defenders (for future reference, a point I am not conceding) I doubt this army could have been strong enough to hold back the might of Gondor indefinitely if it were applied in that situation, certainly not for two years. Even heavily defended places will fall, even if it is costly, to sustained pressure without relief. We are back to the same problem of where was the Nazguls’ army to come from and how was it supplied.

During the first three days, Gondor should have had an easier time dislodging the Morgul invasion. The longer the Nazgûl’s invasion force was in the pass, the more difficult it would become for Gondor to force them out of position.

“Even heavily defended places will fall … to sustained pressure without relief,” you say. That is true: the Morgul forces had a continuous link to their bases of supply; but the garrison of Minas Ithil was isolated, and eventually it did fall. No reinforcements could get into Minas Ithil, nor could food or military goods; for the Morgul army, however, whatever its size, it could be reinforced at will from the Mordor end of the pass, and it could be freely resupplied and re-equipped without interference or interruption. Besides orcs, as CaptainofDespair has observed, there were also Wainriders and men of Khand and Harad that the Nazgûl could use to prevent Gondor from accessing the first few miles of the pass.

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

…A) the king and his council must have had some idea of what was going on and B) that they would be willing to pay a pretty heavy price to get the palantir back. I think that if they had believed that a substantial military campaign was in order they would have done it. And Gondor’s power was still sufficient to do this.

No doubt they had an excellent picture of the tactical situation, and they had far superior communications, having no impediment to their lines of communication with Minas Ithil; however, they had no way to take advantage of their intelligence, unless you can demonstrate how Gondor could effect a military operation in Mordor or the eastern end of the Ithil pass without resort to the Ithil pass or the Morannon.

You say that “they would be willing to pay a pretty heavy price” to defend Minas Ithil, and I agree: but once the Morgul force was entrenched along the entire western approach to Minas Ithil, the “advantages” for Gondor would be much akin to those enjoyed during World War I by armies attacked heavily entrenched positions: very poor prospects indeed. It would seem that most of the Nazgûl were there as well, and anytime a breach began to form in the Morgul lines, I suspect one or more of them would join in the fray.

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

…the Witch-king was back in Mordor in the first place was because Gondor had reached up and kicked him out of Angmar.

An oversimplification of the events surrounding the defeat of Angmar. The Witch-king was defeated because in his pride after having seized Fornost, slaughtered everyone in the city, and seated himself on the ancient throne of Arnor, he went out to meet his enemies without good information on the size and disposition of their force. I have posted this before in other places, but perhaps it is useful to repost it here:

This is how I interpret the material concerning the end of the kingdom of Angmar in Return of the King, “Appendix A”. I prepared a sketch to more easily describe the situation I think Tolkien has laid out for us.

1. Círdan, leading the combined forces of Lindon, the surviving Dúnedain of the North, and most of the expeditionary force of Gondor, approaches Fornost from the Hills of Evendim. (Big red arrow)
2. The Witch-king, whose army has occupied Fornost, leads his forces out to confront them between Lake Nenuial and the North Downs. (Big blue arrow)
3. The two armies engage. As Angmar’s lines begin to waver, Eärnur leading the cavalry of Gondor charges into the battle from the north. (Thin red line headed south).
4. Angmar is defeated. The Witch-king leads a retreat in haste towards Carn-Dûm, with Eärnur and the cavalry of Gondor in hot pursuit. (Thin blue and red lines headed towards Carn-Dûm.)
5. Before the Witch-king and his remaining forces can reach their city, a force from Rivendell led by Glorfindel cuts off their retreat. (Thin red line from Rivendell) What is left of the army of Angmar is utterly destroyed. The Witch-king alone escapes into the night.

The Witch-king had no use for an army the size of that he possessed at Angmar. It could not be inserted into the pass to any positive effect: which is exactly why even a large army from Gondor would be of less effect: only the front lines of the two armies could fight, and all the advantages would accrue to the Morgul side. The whole reason Isildur constructed Minas Ithil was to control western end of the pass, which Gondor did for 2000 years until the Nazgûl were able to cut off the citadel and invest it: all the garrisons along the border were undermanned and unprepared, as I showed in the first five citations in post #28.

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

I believe, given the seemingly conflicting information we possess, something unorthodox happened at Minas Ithil and I think a “haunting” is by far the most reasonable explanation which is in line with what we know. The critical factor in my view is that the Gondorians didn’t understand what was happening and hauntings are good for that sort of thing.

I don’t find any conflicting information: it is extremely sparse, but I do not see any internal conflicts or counterindications. The text is quite clear that the Nazgûl led a force that descended upon Minas Ithil by surprise, invested the citadel, and took it after a two-year siege. This is repeated in more than one place in the corpus. There is no mention of anything that hints of “hauntings” – that was what took place in the Barrow-downs of Cardolan, and it is also well-attested in many places in the corpus. Had he intended the events at the two places to be similar, I cannot see why Tolkien would say in RotK, “Appendix A”, “Gondor and the Heirs of Anárion” that

It was … in the reign of King Eärnil (II) … that the Witch-king escaping from the North came to Mordor, and there gathered the other Ringwraiths… [In III] 2000 … they issued from Mordor by the Pass of Cirith Ungol and laid siege to Minas Ithil. This they took in 2002, and captured the palantír of the tower.

That seems to me a simple and straightforward statement. To my mind, it does not constitute a “plot hole” or require any kind of supernatural events, though given that the attacking force was led by the Nazgûl, I imagine there might have been a few “supernatural events.” But this operation could have been conducted by any well-led, well-prepared, well-disciplined army under the circumstances. I agree with this remark earlier in the thread,

Originally Posted by Farael

That explains the two-year long "siege" and also how the Nine (with some help, but not necessarily a huge army) were able to take Minas Ithil.