[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Tar-Telperien

Now, a word about Eru: I really can't see him as a moral figure. He can't really be bound to morality himself. Furthermore, he did not "punish" Melkor for being "immoral", he simply let him be and do as he wished, though he did warn Melkor of the consequences of his actions (namely, that his plans would not ultimately be successful). If Eru made the quintessential "moral" and "immoral" figures of Arda, namely Manwë and Melkor, but is neither beholden to them nor gives any of his creatures any moral code to follow (this is the way in which he perhaps differs most from any Primary World deity), then how are we to assume he is moral? Eru simply creates. Morality is a product of the fact that his creatures were designed in a certain way, and have limitations (namely, the ability to be hurt by others of his creatures). Morality rises from design and the practical facts of life in Arda, not by divine command. Like language, the ability to conceive of a morality was probably a gift of Eru to his creatures, to make life easier for them. But they are not required (or even, as far as we can tell, encouraged) by him to follow their moral strictures; that's something they have to decide to do on their own. Eru doesn't seem to like telling people what to do: he wants them to act for themselves!

I'll agree with all of this (and the rest, actually )! I think that's the crucial point (even in this world, let alone the secondary one created by Tolkien) - that you cannot assign good/bad to the creator. A creator just is. It's from living in and experiencing the world as given to them that the peoples learn what is right and what is wrong.

And going on from that, if rules were set out about where people could go within the circles of the world then we must presume that if broken, then something would happen. I won't go so far as to say it was 'punishment', as I think it was just an inevitability.

Originally Posted by Tar-Telperien

To those who have asked about the need to keep Men out of Valinor: it's a fair question. Luckily, Tolkien answers it for us in detail in Essay VII of "Myths Transformed". To summarize it, Men would basically have been "out of sync" with the longer, slower rhythms of life in the Undying Lands. They would have felt fundamentally out of place, and envied everything and everyone else, to an even greater extent than they did while living in mortal lands. And if they were granted immortality of the body somehow, their souls would basically go insane after a while, since they were given the desire to leave Arda after a relatively short time. Thus, a Man's soul and body would be completely opposed and in hatred of each other, and Tolkien wrote of the nasty consequences of that; I won't bother to recount them here. So basically, life in Aman would only be more torturous for Men, not less, as the messengers of the Valar told the Númenóreans generations before their Downfall. It was really for their own good that they were kept out (and I'm not just saying this; the essay paints a pretty squicky picture of the consquences).

That about sums it up for me too. Men and Elves are at root very different beings. The nature of Elves in time necessarily makes them temporal creatures living a temporal existence, yet at the same time, they have incredible permanence. They are like Time Lords. (Sorry, I knew I'd manage to tie in a Doctor Who reference somewhere... ). The Elves, with their greater experience (i.e. eternity's experience, not the mere fleeting one hundred years or so of experience which most ordinary men could hope for - even the couple of hundred of a faithful Numenorean was nothing in comparison to a Elf's lifespan) of timelessness truly understand why it would be heartbreaking for all for Men and Elves to live side by side.

Elves know whereas Men must learn, and keep on learning as they die and a new generation comes along.