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Old 01-18-2007, 10:25 PM   #81
Tar-Telperien
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Join Date: Nov 2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by littlemanpoet
For example, an emphasis on "no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me" while ignoring "There was Eru, the One, who in Arda is called Ilúvatar; and he made first the Ainur, the Holy Ones, that were the offspring of his thought".

'Holy' means 'pure'. Perfect. Flawless. In the beginning even Melkor was holy. Thus, evil, in the Ainulindalë, is equal to 'flawed'.
Actually, "holy" has a bunch of different meanings. Most of them refer to being in the service of God. As the Ainur (which actually is not even a native Elvish word; it is adapted from Valarin) were his direct servants in bringing about the creation of Eä, wouldn't this be a better interpretation of the intended meaning of "holy" in this context? Especially since Tolkien directly contradicts the notion that the Valar were "perfect": "Every finite creature must have some weakness: that is some inadequacy to deal with some situations" (Essay VI, "Myths Transformed"). This was in direct reference to the actions of the Valar upon Arda. Thus, I reject the notion that any of the Ainur were at any time "flawless". The explanation that they were holy because they were created to serve Eru directly seems to make much more sense.

And to me, that very imperfection of the Valar was something Eru used; it was part of how they served him, by being imperfect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by littlemanpoet
Also, "Nothing is evil in the beginning. Not even Sauron was so." Elrond is one of Tolkien's primary truth tellers. He cannot be wrong without doing violence to the story of LotR.
And what exactly is "evil" in this context? Doesn't it refer to incarnate-constructed notions of good and evil? Generally people aren't raising Orc-armies from day one of their being on earth, no. In that sense I would agree with Elrond. But if you use evil to mean "flawed", then "all finite creatures" are very much evil, by Tolkien's own statements. Being flawed is an intrinsic aspect of their finititude.

Quote:
Originally Posted by littlemanpoet
Therefore, evil cannot have its origins in Eru.
I won't bother quoting Eru's declaration about where all themes have their source, since you've already done that... and contradicted it with this statement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by littlemanpoet
So account for ALL the text.
Indeed!
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